Limestone tile cracking disaster on UFH

[White Room]

I think your'll find PLI won't cover for bad workmanship...as you state accidental damage.

 

[splas]

Whitebeam is correct - I just checked again, it does not cover faulty workmanship sadly.

 

[splas]

Also tiling over the top could never work - we have level access created to all external doors

 

[Ajax123]

I always thought pli would cover negligence. If he is not covered you may have cover under you household insurance. I know I am covered on mine for damage caused by workmen or negligence on their behalf. The insurance company would just chase him for any costs.

 

[White Room]

I always thought pli would cover negligence. If he is not covered you may have cover under you household insurance. I know I am covered on mine for damage caused by workmen or negligence on their behalf. The insurance company would just chase him for any costs.

Personally Alan can't see that happening...

 

[Chalker]

If a customer sues a contractor, surely the contractor would claim on his public liability insurance.? Pli indemnity, includes a negligence claim.
just looked at mine and it is included

 

[splas]

You sure it is a negligence claim for bad workmanship & not for a negligent accident - the two are quite different - not saying that is the case Iam not certain.

However in his case he will more than likely have the absolute bare minimum insurance as he has financial issues.
Also Ajax suggests household insurance but again that is for accidental damge (which is often negligent) but is NOT the same as bad workmanship - this isn't an accident where he dropped something on my tiles.
I seem to have created a debate on insurance now - sorry guys - interesting topic for you though!
Sadly I think though in such situations the customer is screwed and at best the bad tiler/builder just suffers a reputation/bad reviews hit.

 

[Chalker]

Plu and indemnity insurance covers fir negligence, even for giving bad advice!

 

[splas]

Hi Chalker,
Please check yourself but you will find that althopugh PLI can cover for negligence should you accidently (or negligently) damage something in the course of your work (like dropping a hammeron the tiles) it does NOT cover poor workmanship.
Profesional indemnity insurance is different & does cover some professionals for the advice they give in the course of their work. Here is a good explanation:

Professional indemnity provides insurance to protect you from mistakes you make at work that result in a financial loss to your client, specifically after you have provided them with a service or advice. For instance….
An architect designs a house. Their client then spends money on building the house, only to find that it collapses as the design was faulty. The client will sue the architect for the money that he has lost as a result of the architect’s negligence, and the architect’s professional indemnity insurance will cover the costs plus any legal fees that are required (up to the limits of the policy).
On the other hand if a builder has simply built a house badly and it falls down as a result, Professional Indemnity insurance will not provide any cover as it is not the same as a warranty; nor is it providing a guarantee of work carried out badly (what insurers call “faulty workmanship”).
So in the two examples above, the architect has given advice to the client on how they should build a house; this advice has proven to be wrong as the house has fallen down, so Professional Indemnity covers the losses from the negligent advice. The builder however, has just done a bad job – the builder hasn’t advised the client how they should build the house, so Professional Indemnity insurance does not provide coverage as the loss was a result of “faulty workmanship”

 

[AliGage]

Before the page numbers increase further, we haven't touched on the sub-contracted tiler............he/she has a responsibility in this too.

 

[splas]

Sub-contractors have a responsibility to the main contractor who engaged them NOT the client. In any case the same insurance issues we've already discussed apply - there is no insurance for bad workmanship! My recourse can only be through the main contractor.
The subbie my bldr employed didn't look like he could afford such a loss - this is thousands of pounds worth of work/replacement goods, main ctr certainly can't.
Whilst a lot of comments ref culpability, insurance, just re-do the floor, might be helpful in a perfect world sadly that's not where I live!

 

[widler]

Sub-contractors have a responsibility to the main contractor who engaged them NOT the client. In any case the same insurance issues we've already discussed apply - there is no insurance for bad workmanship! My recourse can only be through the main contractor.
The subbie my bldr employed didn't look like he could afford such a loss - this is thousands of pounds worth of work/replacement goods, main ctr certainly can't.
Whilst a lot of comments ref culpability, insurance, just re-do the floor, might be helpful in a perfect world sadly that's not where I live!

3 options , loads if rugs, retile (obviously out of the question , and you have less chance than a snowball in a coal fire than getting money out of the builder, even if you could he would most probably go bankrupt 1st rather than pay up) or fill the cracks , and live with it [emoji22]look on the bright side it will have the 'lived in look' [emoji41]
The problem you will have is they will open up again , the heating HAS to be turned on before any tiling as it will move with expansion and contraction [emoji22] and limestone is a soft arse stone

 

[splas]

Thanks Widler,
A helpful reply - thank you.
So, in your opinion, you think to create expansion joints restrospectively across doorways etc would give a better chance of no more cracks than simply filling in the existing cracks with something flexible. I do appreciate the chance of no more cracks is slim whatever we do!
Strategically placed furniture & rugs also good !
The cracks are fortunately v fine so far!!!:sofahide:

 

[widler]

Is that Jerusalem polished ? Very nice stone , i have some to lay in the next few weeks, fortunately just on a concrete floor.
Im afraid it will get worse with time .
Just over ten years ago a good mate built his own house , underfloor heating , piped , over s/c screed, 1st time id come across it, it was just getting popular up my end, we laid nigh on 100m2 of trav without even pressurising it never mind turning it on, in my defence i did say it needs to be on before hand (even though i know nothing about it,in my mind i knew the plastic pipes will swell with pressure and heat [emoji15])
Anyway there was no water to the house or even nearby so we just tiled it, looked bloody superb, then after about 15 months cracks appeared and have gone worse over the years .
I go around most weeks as our wifes/ kids are matez, it looks ok, we have filled all the cracks but the have got worse, not cavernous just cracks.
Im just about to tile it all again actually in porcelthin tiles, can't wait to get shut of that [emoji85]

 

[splas]

Hi Widler, it is Opera honed from Artisans 600x600

10 years ago your error is somewhat understandable but today ???

Our system was pressure tested (though I am certain not properly) prior to tiling but not commisioned becuase the bldr was so disorganised when the tiler came there was no boiler for him to test it with!!
You say you filled the cracks for your friend but they got worse. My question, which nobody has answered directly is... should we could we do the same OR does just filling them risk more cracking than we would get if we retrospectively created as many expansion joints as we can in suitable locations - down the middle of the main room & across thresholds etc? Won't hold you to it obviously - appreciate it's not an exact science & nobody can really say what will or might happen!!
Here's some more pics

 

[Dougs Third Go]

Hi Widler, it is Opera honed from Artisans 600x600

10 years ago your error is somewhat understandable but today ???

Our system was pressure tested (though I am certain not properly) prior to tiling but not commisioned becuase the bldr was so disorganised when the tiler came there was no boiler for him to test it with!!
You say you filled the cracks for your friend but they got worse. My question, which nobody has answered directly is... should we could we do the same OR does just filling them risk more cracking than we would get if we retrospectively created as many expansion joints as we can in suitable locations - down the middle of the main room & across thresholds etc? Won't hold you to it obviously - appreciate it's not an exact science & nobody can really say what will or might happen!!
Here's some more pics
View attachment 60318 View attachment 60319

if you fill them the same will happen as floor expands, when floor contracts back the tiles will probably de-bond and heave (tent-up), if not in the same place, elsewhere imo

 

[Dave]

Just to add to dougs post above , we like to advise a fix for a certain problem and not a bonny up solution , the cracks at present will not accept grout to disguise some what , so maybe you'll have to live with what you have for now , you could also be looking at more than just cracks in the coming months if they tent.

many thanks for sharing your project and I hope you find a solution.

 

[splas]

Thank you, understood.

 

[Diggy]

Out of interest did you get in writing that the builder had said it would be ok to tile , uncommissioned?

Diggy

 

[gamma38]

Where abouts are you splas. If your near enough to me i would be keen to come have a look. I am based in Bedford.

 

[splas]

Hi Paul,
Interesting that you should get in touch as I have looked at your site previously as you are not that far awayfrom us - I had already looked at your web-site with a view to getting in touch for the remaining tiling should our bldr not finish the job.
I will call you tomorrow & speak more off-line.
Thanks

 

[gamma38]

Hi Paul,
Interesting that you should get in touch as I have looked at your site previously as you are not that far awayfrom us - I had already looked at your web-site with a view to getting in touch for the remaining tiling should our bldr not finish the job.
I will call you tomorrow & speak more off-line.
Thanks

No worries, I look forward to speaking with you.

 

[jonnyc]

Not been on site for ages so only just picked up on this thread. Seems that you are in a position where you need to try something. I have been called in numerous times to try and rectify same problem as this.very common where windows go in after screed laid and builder fills in later. What I usually do and can never guarantee but does often work is remove tile s that bridge two substrates wher the isa crack.remove the bedding adhesive. Cut through join between two substrates and gun a two part resin to bond substrates together . Over lay with ditra mat if you have enough depth or if not a 1mm separating membrane like pecilastic or trimline similar membrane . Ideally than bed stone in rubber crumb adhesive which is most flex on market far more so than a s2 adhesive.provided the susfloor has been down for six months say and heating commissioned and working that long you havea good chance but not guaranteed.i am nota pro but have fixed a few thousand limestone floors over 25 years and it can work .what I should add is that where you have problem in middle of floor if you resin bond the opened up join you could force another crack to appear elsewhere less likely near perimeter of floor .

 

[splas]

Hi John,
A really helpful reply, thank you.
The builder is already progressing with cutting across all door thresholds to form retrospective expansion joints. We haven't tackled the one down the middle of the room yet but intend putting an expansion joint there too - just a shame that it is so close to a tile join anyway so we will have a tram line in the midle of the room but no choice as filling could just force the movement elsewhere as you suggest.

Helpful suggestion on the window/door areas where there are two substrates - you don't find that putting ditri matting in an isolated area could also force the movement elsewhere?? I only ask because across one doorway (the last one the tiller laid), we did put ditra mat in just across the threshold (realising the potential issue albeit somewhat too late), but this has had the effect of forcing the crack to appear beyond the threshold & matting strip. Just a thought, could be acoincidence but made us think small areas of mat were not helpful ? Grateful for your thoughts.

 

[jonnyc]

ditra mat wont stop lateral movement only accomodate it to a degree.I very much doubt that the fact you put ditra under a tile forced a crack elsewhere. did the tile crack that was on top of matting. did tiler use ruberised adhesive . by all means give mea call.you can find mynumber on my website