Newly tiled shower/bath is leaking

[DHTiling]

Afternoon bill...

How soon did you use the shower after the tiler finished grouting..?

 

[billhicks]

Afternoon bill...

How soon did you use the shower after the tiler finished grouting..?

Probably 2 weeks or more.

 

[tommyzooom]

RE. grout sealing I feel this will be only a temporary fix, if at all. It seems that the silicone joint between wall and bath has failed somewhere, It seems to me you should remove the bottom row of tiles and reseal this(I sometimes use silicone called CT1, expensive but good, will stick to damp surfaces), or you could tank over edge of bath as described earlier,

 

[DHTiling]

Right bill...Something for you to try....

Cover the wall in clingfilm but do not cover where the silicone is....then direct the shower onto the wall and see whats happens...the cling film will keep the wall dry but still let water run over the bottom where the tiles meet the bath...

If no leak then water is getting in through the joints as you thought...

If water is getting in through a joint as quick as you say then there is a problem with the grouting and this needs redoing...

I think it is more than likely a very thin hairline split in the silicone where the silicone has not adhered properly...

try this and then come back..

 

[James Spelrem]

you know it really surprises me on how much water has come through I think dan is right excessive water on the ledge of the bath and working its way under the wall.a trick I learned a long time ago is rub your silicone in both directions to ensure a good bond. mabe the tub has settled a little bit 1/8 of an inch on the back wall is all it takes.

 

[faithhealer]

I once tanked the walls correctly, lipped onto bath (or so I thought) Floorboards had a bit of give and moved. had to remove bottom row of tiles and re do!

 

[Olz]

Its more likeley that when the silicone seal is the problem, I would suggest that when you are squirting water directly at the silicone its not leaking becuase of the angle your squirting at at, when your squirting it at the tiles the water is running down the wall to the top of the silicone, the seal is probably leaking at the very top of the silicone down the back of it, when its running down the wall its hitting this point and leaking through, when your spraying the silicone directly its hitting it at an angle and running off.

Strip the silicone off and redo it, why didnt your tiler do the siliconing??

 

[chrisroe]

was the bath full of water when it was siliconed and also was it left full for 12 hours ?

 

[billhicks]

Its more likeley that when the silicone seal is the problem, I would suggest that when you are squirting water directly at the silicone its not leaking becuase of the angle your squirting at at, when your squirting it at the tiles the water is running down the wall to the top of the silicone, the seal is probably leaking at the very top of the silicone down the back of it, when its running down the wall its hitting this point and leaking through, when your spraying the silicone directly its hitting it at an angle and running off.

Strip the silicone off and redo it, why didnt your tiler do the siliconing??

I've just done some more tests taking into consideration what everyone has said.

Spraying the shower head directly onto (from above aswell) the silcone there's no leaks at all. The leaks only start when I spray the around the first horizontal grout line so I'm pretty sure that's where it's getting in. If I spray there it leaks, if I stop spraying there and move down a inch or 2, it stops leaking. There's no visible cracks. I can only assume it's the grout itself that's of poor quality and is letting in water.

Tiler didn't do the final silicone because I needed to install the shower screen and thought it best I do it all in one go rather than let him do a bit, then me do a bit later. Plus I'm 200% positive it's not the silicone that's the problem as I take my time doing it, use only the best silicone and do it well.

Silicone was left 24hrs+ before using the bath or shower also.

He's coming back tomorrow to have a look. And FWIW I didn't knock him down in price a penny, he was the most expensive quote but I'd seen his work previous and it was good and I wanted a good job.

My feeling is that he's used poor quality grout. It's not flexible as there's a big crack already down another section of wall away from the shower. He wasn't using a BAL or Mapei product, that's for sure but it was powdered grout from the tile chain 'Al Murad'. You know, as a customer it's difficult to insist that a tradesman use a certain product. I mean, he's tiled hundreds of bathrooms time and time again so what do I know type thing. Tradesman do not like customers telling them what to do do they?

 

[Deleted member 9966]

I've just done some more tests taking into consideration what everyone has said.

Spraying the shower head directly onto (from above aswell) the silcone there's no leaks at all. The leaks only start when I spray the around the first horizontal grout line so I'm pretty sure that's where it's getting in. If I spray there it leaks, if I stop spraying there and move down a inch or 2, it stops leaking. There's no visible cracks. I can only assume it's the grout itself that's of poor quality and is letting in water.

Tiler didn't do the final silicone because I needed to install the shower screen and thought it best I do it all in one go rather than let him do a bit, then me do a bit later. Plus I'm 200% positive it's not the silicone that's the problem as I take my time doing it, use only the best silicone and do it well.

Silicone was left 24hrs+ before using the bath or shower also.

He's coming back tomorrow to have a look. And FWIW I didn't knock him down in price a penny, he was the most expensive quote but I'd seen his work previous and it was good and I wanted a good job.

My feeling is that he's used poor quality grout. It's not flexible as there's a big crack already down another section of wall away from the shower. He wasn't using a BAL or Mapei product, that's for sure but it was powdered grout from the tile chain 'Al Murad'. You know, as a customer it's difficult to insist that a tradesman use a certain product. I mean, he's tiled hundreds of bathrooms time and time again so what do I know type thing. Tradesman do not like customers telling them what to do do they?

Bill you've done the right thing by getting him back to have a look at the problem, and as a customer, you expect to get a professional in who knows what they are doing and what the best materials are for the job. The Tiler has a duty to fix any problems that have arisen, particularly if you have already paid him for the work done. Unfortunately, most expensive doesn't necessarily mean best quality.

But a tradesman should keep up to date on what the best materials are and for which purpose. Product development will be highly competitive between the major adhesive and grout manufacturers because each one wants to be a tilers first choice.

Good luck and let us know how you get on

 

[billhicks]

Yea, I know. When you get quotes for a job it's usually a letterhead and a price so can be pot luck if it's not a recommendation.

If I could offer any advise to any tradesman it would be to take the time to specify on your written quote that you will use the very best materials and do the job to the highest standard. Thus when I'm looking through the written quotes I've received yours is not just a price and a name/number like all the others...

 

[Olz]

How much water is getting through, if its alot then there must be a hole in the grout, and the tiles cant be fixed very well, considering that the grout is not only passing through the grout, then the adhesive that (should be) behind however many courses of tiles high the leak is. Im sorry but I cant envisige drips of water passing through the grout and the adhesive that much that quickly if the jobs been done right.

How long is it from spraying the water to the drip appearing, and how long does it drip for after you stop spraying?

 

[DHTiling]

I was just thinking that Oli...if water can pass and stop that quick then he has hollowness behind the tiles...

I thinkt he bottom row needs removing and check how much adhesive coverage there is..

 

[billhicks]

How much water is getting through, if its alot then there must be a hole in the grout, and the tiles cant be fixed very well, considering that the grout is not only passing through the grout, then the adhesive that (should be) behind however many courses of tiles high the leak is. Im sorry but I cant envisige drips of water passing through the grout and the adhesive that much that quickly if the jobs been done right.

How long is it from spraying the water to the drip appearing, and how long does it drip for after you stop spraying?

It's a constant drip, one every 2 seconds at least. It takes a few seconds for it to start dripping (10-15) and literally stops dripping about 2 seconds after shower head is moved away from the place that leaks. Like I said previous, it's quite hard to believe from looking at it as there's no cracks or holes anywhere to be seen.

Tilers been back to have a look and he couldn't quite believe it either but the leak is evident. Plan is to seal the grout, silicone up the corner and try and get some more silicone under the bath where it meets the wall. If that doesn't work he says he'll take some tiles off.

 

[Olz]

Im sorry mate but I just cant see how water could be passing through the grout and the adhesive that quickly and consistantly, behind the tiles should be a bed of adhesive, Id be very interested to hear the results after the grout has been sealed, ask him if he dot and dabbed the tiles.

I cant believe that water could soak through the grout then adhesive in such a way, water soaking through in this manner usually takes a very long time to notice, and you usually only notice when tiles fall off or grout falls out of the joints, have you tried pressing something like a nail into the grout to see if its hard?

Im trying to make the best suggestion as to the problem it might sound like im having a go but im not, i really do think your barking up the wrong tree pointing the finger at the grout, my money would be on the plumbing leaking, perhaps water running down the shower hose or something when its on based on the frequency, I know you say you've isolated that and checked it all ready but I just cant see water passing through the grout and addy so quickly.

If water is passing through the grout and addy you should be able to pop the tile off easily, although id expect them to be falling off by now, what the surface under the adhesive?

 

[billhicks]

Im sorry mate but I just cant see how water could be passing through the grout and the adhesive that quickly and consistantly, behind the tiles should be a bed of adhesive, Id be very interested to hear the results after the grout has been sealed, ask him if he dot and dabbed the tiles.

I cant believe that water could soak through the grout then adhesive in such a way, water soaking through in this manner usually takes a very long time to notice, and you usually only notice when tiles fall off or grout falls out of the joints, have you tried pressing something like a nail into the grout to see if its hard?

Im trying to make the best suggestion as to the problem it might sound like im having a go but im not, i really do think your barking up the wrong tree pointing the finger at the grout, my money would be on the plumbing leaking, perhaps water running down the shower hose or something when its on based on the frequency, I know you say you've isolated that and checked it all ready but I just cant see water passing through the grout and addy so quickly.

If water is passing through the grout and addy you should be able to pop the tile off easily, although id expect them to be falling off by now, what the surface under the adhesive?

Well, everything I've said has been 100% true so not much else I can say really. It's not the plumbing..

The mixer is an exposed bar mixer. Both the hose connection and the 3/4" connections are outside the wall on view. I'd be able to see the leak easily and the internal plumbing isn't leaking as if it were, it would be leaking whether the shower was on or not. If the internal compression fittings were leaking, the water would run down the hep2o pipe, not between the bath and the wall.

He didn't dot and dab but perhaps there is a gap where there's no adhesive where the leak is? It's behind the taps so perhaps it was awkward to get the trowel in? I dunno but the water is getting through the grout line, running down the tanked wall and out under the bath. Perhaps he used the trowel vertical in that area? and thus makes it easier for the water to run down the wall? I dunno again but I kid you not what I describe is exactly what's happening. Guess it just goes to show that grout really isn't waterproof and tanking is absolutely necessary. If it were just tiled straight on plasterboard I imagine the plasterboard would just soak up the leak and you'd never ever know about it.

The grout was 'Al Murad' branded stuff. Read: Mega cheap

I managed to get some more silicone up under the bath between the edges of the bath and the wall. I'm hopeful that this + grout sealing + silicone vertical corner will fix it.

 

[Olz]

I hope you get it sorted mate please let us know what the problem was and how it was rectified.

It shouldnt matter which was he used the trowel, I think your meaning that the troughs in the adhesive when its combed with the trowel and running vertically instead of horizontally, but this shouldnt matter as they compress when the tile is pushed into placed, the peaks collapse into the troughs making one flat bed of ashesive, like the jam in a sandwich, I suspect he must have dot and dabbed or left the area behind the taps with no adhesive behind.

Sealing the grout may solve the problem if the grout is the cause, but bear in mind the sealer wont last forever and is going to need resealing to prevent further leaking periodically, you should try and make sure there is no water left behind the tiles aswell or your going to trap it behind the tiles.

Id be insisting as a customer that the effected area's tiles be removed and refixed properly. If a jobs worth doing its worth doing right and all that.

Al Murad grout is palace rebranded I think, was it branded Al Murad or was it Granfix, Ive used both and there usually OK, although i had some problems with granfix cracking recently, but that was the gray one and seems to have been a bad batch at my suppliers.

 

[billhicks]

It wasn't granfix, I used that before when I tiled our floor. It was Al Murad branded, yellow bag and inside I think you get a few clear plastic bags of white grout.

Adhesive was Al Murad branded as well, white tub.

 

[Olz]

Im almost certain that the al murad tubbed adhesive is palace rebranded, although im not sure its suitable for use in shower areas.

What size are the tiles?

Edit: I've just looked at your pics, I would say that the tiles are too big for a tubbed adhesive, the fact that it may not have set may explain how the waters passing through it so quickly, is the water dirty when it drips through?

 

[billhicks]

Tiles are 300x450x10. Water is clean as a whistle.

All I remember from the tub was that it was white with green/yellow al murad logo and it said non-slip on it.

 

[Olz]

I though they looked around that size though sometimes pictures can be deceptive, they are too big for a dispersion (tubed) adhesive im afraid, the issue being that the adheshive of that nature sets by the moisture dispersing and drying out, with tiles of that size the moisture cannot get to the edges of the tile to evaporate out and doesnt set in the middles of the tiles.

Are they ceramic?

 

[billhicks]

Ceramic. Yes...

 

[Olz]

I'll make this my last post until you let us know how the rectification work goes,

Tubbed adhesive is not suitable for tiles of that size, there also seems to be a serious problem with the grout and the coverage of the adhesive behind the tiles if the water is getting through and filtering down behind the tiles so quickly.

Its a shame because in the pictures it seems to be quite a nice job but there are some issues that need to be resolved, sealing the grout may stop the leak but wont rectify the fact that the adhesive isnt suitable and possibly not safe, and that water has been able to get behind their in the first place.

If it were me I would try and remove a tile in the affected area, I would suggest that it will come off easily and the adhesive will still be wet behind it. In which case the only proper and permanent solution is to remove and refix the whole lot with an adhesive suitable for the purpose.

Of course this in only my opinion as a humble tiler from seeing the photo's and reading the facts.

Oli

 

[cam_low]

Interesting read! I have to say that Oli has my (as per bible, great post)

 

[Olz]

Whats the news then, Have you got this sorted???