Please help a Newbie

[LesD]

Hi,

I'm Les and I found the Tilers Form while Googling for BAL Products because I am looking for inspiration to get me kick started on fixing my shower having had one go a couple of years ago that has failed.

My first attempt involved adding a bi-fold door to a recessed shower that had a curtain at the front for far too long! Unfortunately I could not find a 900 mm wide bi-fold door in my local stores at that time so I used a narrower one, built some plywood faced buttresses and tiled over the plywood to narrow the space and fit the door. The door has been fine but two and a bit years later the plywood at the bottom of the buttresses is rotten. Investigation has revealed that there is not much of a leak but any leak is all it takes I guess!

The main weakness in what I did appears to be the external corners on the buttresses where I used the generally available quarter round plastic edging strip. The little vibration as the bi-fold door snaps shut has weaked the seal to this strip and let some water weep through. I have considered fixes (like sticking 1" plastic angle over the external coners with Evode Wet Grap) but in the end I found a 900 mm bi-fold door and a 900 mm square stone resin base at Primrose Bathrooms on (of all places) eBay. I now have both the new 900 mm door and the new 900 mm square base in my garage while I contemplate what to do next. Body building would be a good idea now I know just how heavy these items are but suffice it to say I am just a wee bit past my prime so I will have to enlist the young men in my family to assist with the lifting and lugging tasks.

I will outline what I am trying to do below.

I have upstairs the recessed shower alcove that has been recently refurbished with new tiles over an existing tray/basin.


This old basin was "fixed" in using BAL Flex Liquid and powder some 25+ years ago and that part of the job is still going strong so my experience with this BAL product led me to want to use it again.


I have bought the nominally 900 mm by 900 mm by 95 mm stone resin basin that is going to be a right shoe horn job to get into the recess, especially considering how heavy it is. The instructions that came with this new tray recommend an external grade 20 mm plywood base board and bedding the tray into mortar. I fancy 18 mm MDF for the base board and buttering the bottom of the tray and the top of the base board with BAL FastFlex and bedding into that. Then filling round the tray between the walls and the tray and continuing far enough up the walls to stick on a row of tiles to make good the vertical gap between the existing tiles on the wall and the new tray with more BAL FastFlex. Grout up nice and white - job done. Well that was my plan.

I have also read up on the BAL tanking system and wondered about using it but I am not starting from scratch and the leak proof service I have had, having done the old tray with BAL Flex speaks for its self and encourages me to do it the same way again.


I have wondered with BAL FastFlex, as a non-pro. if I would be able to work fast enough to be able to use it instead of the BAL Flex that I used all those years ago. I am thinking along the lines that if I mixed up smaller quantities at a time and did the job in stages I might be OK but for the best seal I think it would be better if it all set together as a whole.


I will have the wall tiles removed to a height of 260 mm above the existing floor level when I take the old tray out of the shower recess and intend to remove all the old floorboards so that I can sink my proposed 18 mm MDF baseboard in on to the tops of the wooden joists. (This being an upstairs shower) The recess walls will be close up to the new tray when it is in place with about 12.5 mm gaps to fill between tray and walls on all three sides of the recess.


I expect that the new tray is going to be a pig to get in with the limited access so if I could do it without the recommended mortar bed this would be a definite advantage.

Any advice other than call in a proffesional (but it might come to that before to long if I can find a good one locally) would be very much appreciated.


Sorry but I can never use ten words when a hundred will do!

Regards,

Les.

 

[mikethetile]

hi les

i wouldnt use mdf, is not the best stuff to use in potentally damp areas. also its not realy stable

18 mm wbp ply would do the same job

knocking up rapid flex in small quantities is fine and will not affect the overall job, but why use rapid

bal is a first class product and i would reccomend but you may find that mapei is not only cheaper but is at least as good

mike

 

[faithhealer]

hi les, forget the MDF for starters, have you seen what happens when it gets wet! I Does this tray slide under the bottom row of tiles or between the tiles? just trying to get a picture

 

[LesD]

Hi Mike,

Many thanks for such a speedy reply.

You have giving me the same about MDF as a friend did today.

I have tried to find BAL Flex but locally all I can get is the FastFlex.
I have tried Topps Tiles (Expensive!) but I don't know anything about Mapei or where to get it! :blush5:

 

[mikethetile]

do you have a tile giant near you les

 

[LesD]

hi les, forget the MDF for starters, have you seen what happens when it gets wet!

MDF what's that - It's forgotten!

I Does this tray slide under the bottom row of tiles or between the tiles? just trying to get a picture

Under the tiles. The tray is strictly 895 mm x 895 mm and I have 890 mm face to face between the tiles. The tiles and cement are approximately 10 mm thick so Where the tray lies I have 910 mm. The tricky bit is that I don't have 900 mm in front because there is a vanity unit about 500 mm away so the tray has to go down and in at an angle!

 

[LesD]

do you have a tile giant near you les

Not that I know of. I live in Stafford but I will Google it and see what comes up.

 

[faithhealer]

MDF what's that - It's forgotten!



Under the tiles. The tray is strictly 895 mm x 895 mm and I have 890 mm face to face between the tiles. The tiles and cement are approximately 10 mm thick so Where the tray lies I have 910 mm. The tricky bit is that I don't have 900 mm in front because there is a vanity unit about 500 mm away so the tray has to go down and in at an angle!

somethings gotta come out or come off, Tray really does want to be on a bed of mortar, or adhesive.

 

[mikethetile]

les

im pretty sure tilegiant originated from the stoke area, so there should be one near you

bal is good but its so expensive from topps

it would help if you can remove the vanity as that way you can fit the tray from the front

otherwise as you say you will have to try and ease in at an angle and im not sure how you will get under it at the back to bed it on

 

[LesD]

les

im pretty sure tilegiant originated from the stoke area, so there should be one near you

bal is good but its so expensive from topps

it would help if you can remove the vanity as that way you can fit the tray from the front

otherwise as you say you will have to try and ease in at an angle and im not sure how you will get under it at the back to bed it on

Hi Mike,

Yes I have found Tile Giant in both SOT and Cannock both of which are close by.

Despite there being one in Stafford, Topps is out even though they did say they would match any other written quote that I took in to them!

The Mapei products I have been advised are equivalents for the BAL ones are Mapei keraquick and Ultra flex. Any thoughts on these?

My idea is to use a pair of temporary runners, maybe dowels or broom handles, with the adhesive bed pre-spread between them. Slide the tray in on these runners above the bed then remove the runners. Sounds OK in the planning but might prove more difficult in the doing!

 

[LesD]

One more question if I may, is the 18 mm WBP Plywood you recommend only OK to overboard existing floorboards with or is it OK to use directly onto the joists with the old floorboards removed?

 

[faithhealer]

One more question if I may, is the 18 mm WBP Plywood you recommend only OK to overboard existing floorboards with or is it OK to use directly onto the joists with the old floorboards removed?

If it's the height issue, take the boards up and put some 'noggins' in (Strengthners inbetween the joists) so that the ply has max support. It's unlikely that the joists will fall exactly where you want tham!

 

[LesD]

put some 'noggins' in (Strengthners inbetween the joists) so that the ply has max support. It's unlikely that the joists will fall exactly where you want tham!

You are right about the joist positions but I reckon I can sort that out by following your advice.

With the 18 mm WBP plywood (I am gettings an 8'x4' sheet from Wickes tomorrow) I have read elsewhere not to seal the surface that the Keraquick and Latex plus goes on to but what about the under side of the plywood sheet and its edges? Should I seal these parts and if so what with?

 

[LesD]

With the 18 mm WBP plywood (I am gettings an 8'x4' sheet from Wickes tomorrow)

I got my 18 mm wbp plywood OK yesterday and have it standing in my garage.

I have read elsewhere not to seal the surface that the Keraquick and Latex plus goes on to but what about the under side of the plywood sheet and its edges? Should I seal these parts and if so what with?

With no replies forthcoming from you guys my brother has suggested Yacht Varish so if I hear nothing to the contrary that's what I will use.

A good idea or not? :huh2:

 

[White Room]

Seal with sbr mate thats good stuff

 

[smurf21]

no need to seal the top if using a polymer enhaced adhesive just the edges and underside if you like... but if water gets out of the tray all the sealing in the world wont help if you want it truly waterproof under the tray use a tanking system onto boarding and up the walls where tiles removed before putting tray back down.

 

[faithhealer]

Hows the project coming Les

 

[LesD]

Hows the project coming Les

Hi thanks for asking. The job is underway but as usual with my rate of progess there is already slippage on the plan!

I have the old buttresses down that used to narrow the front for the old 760 mm door so the spaces are ready for new tiles and eventually the new 900 mm door.

I also have the old tray out and the state where it sat was worse than I remembered. I knew the floor would have to be replaced, which is why I got the 18 mm WBP plywood you recommended but there is work to do on the wall that I did not expect as you will see from the pictures I have uploaded.

The things I get myself into. :whistling:

 

[LesD]

no need to seal the top if using a polymer enhaced adhesive just the edges and underside if you like... but if water gets out of the tray all the sealing in the world wont help if you want it truly waterproof under the tray use a tanking system onto boarding and up the walls where tiles removed before putting tray back down.

Hi Smurf,

Not wanting to start from scratch I have been trying to avoid tanking but maybe I should reconsider it.

The new 900 mm square stone resin tray I have bought will be such a snug fit in the in the space between the walls I was hoping to bed it down in Keraquick with Latex Plus and then fill all round its three sides and up under the tiles that are required to make up the space to the existing ones all with the Keraquick adhesive.

That's from a amateur's perspective of Course.

 

[faithhealer]

Seen worse floors/walls les, it'll be alright on the night mate

 

[DHTiling]

Tile on tile i see on the walls.....:smilewinkgrin:

 

[faithhealer]

Tile on tile i see on the walls.....:smilewinkgrin:

Do I hold the record, I took off a FOUR tiles thick wall once.

 

[LesD]

Tile on tile i see on the walls.....:smilewinkgrin:

Yes the original walls had been ok since I moved in and inherited the shower circa 1979 so I took the view that if they didn't leak why disturb them.

That was about two and a half years ago before I found this forum or maybe I would have done it differently!

I think (hope) the wall tiles are OK so providing I can seal the new tray in all should be well.

 

[LesD]

Seen worse floors/walls les, it'll be alright on the night mate

My plan is to take the floor up and let the plywood in but now I have met the next snag.

There is about an inch of joist protruding on both sides making it necessary to cut the old floorboards flush with the walls and immediately above each joist. How to do this is the problem. I can't get in that close to the wall with my circular saw or my jig saw so I have been contemplating lots of drilled holes and then chiselling through between each hole but this is going to very time consuming! Any suggestions?

I tried with my 1" wide chisel without any drilled holes but it is now so blunt after removing tiles, tile cement, grout etc. that it hardly made a mark!

The plywood is slightly thicker than my existing floorboard so will have to fit right up to the walls to support the edges of my tray otherwise I would cut the old boards flush with the joists and fit a sturdy support on to the sides of them to fix the plywood to.

 

[faithhealer]

All I can suggest, unless you want to go out and buy a fein multimaster or the bosch equilvilant is a hand saw, you can buy a handsaw for under a tenner. (use a new one, not one you've a few years) Not easy and a bit painstaking but you should get there