Polypipe Overlay Advice

M

moodle

Hi, looking for advice with regard to Polypipe overlay.

We have bought this already for a 30m2 area (kitchen and extension). My husband is going to put the Polypipe boards down, we have a plumber lined up to make the connections and then we will need to find a tiler to tile on top. So it's only a partial DIY job - the Polypipe boards. The builder has put self leveller down on the concrete floor and it's mainly okay - but there is a slight bit of play in some areas when you put a board down. With this in mind, should he glue the boards to the floor? If so, what should he use to do that? Flexible adhesive? Could the boards be screwed down too?

Also, when we find a tiler to do the job, is there anything he should be aware of? I read somewhere that there should be a decoupling membrane to put down before it is tiled - is this correct? And can anyone recommend a good adhesive to buy?

Basically, if anyone has experience of fitting this system, any tips would be be greatly appreciated. Thanks in advance!
 
think there is some info on this thread re polypipe

Polypipe Overlay System

Just make sure your tiler doesn't tile directly onto the polypipe system. Recommend you either use a cement backer board like NO MORE PLY (other brands are available) or a decoupler (dural/ditra ect)

i would be tempted to put some more leveller down, then stick boards down with a flexible adhesive.
 
I'd invite a tiler to come round for a look-see first.
Otherwise he'll turn-up and have to rely on what everyone else has done - like many of us have to every week

Obviously it'll be perfect and alright to tile cos the builder will say so
 
Hi and welcome to the forum moodle!

Essentially Polypipe is a loose lay system, so if the floor is of such a standard where the boards do not have full contact with the sub floor, then the substrate needs attention.
SLC (self levelling compound) should be used to rectify this, builders are not renowned for being able to level a floor to a standard that is required for a good tiling installation.
Good levelling work is a knack, as SLC doesn't do exactly what it says on the tin! As its a not a liquid per se!
What is the final decorative covering?
Polypipe themselves do not advocate the use of an SLC over their heating system, they feel that this will dislodge their pipe work, although we have yet to see proof.
Most adhesive manufacturers suggest 5-10mm of SLC to cover the heating system and then the introduction of a decoupling membrane/crack mat.
Then the final covering.
Essentially tho the substrate MUST be flat and load bearing before introduction of the Polypipe!
 
Thanks, Lee will have a look at the other thread. Sounds like you've had some bad experiences Martin!
 
3_fall said:
Hi and welcome to the forum moodle!

Essentially Polypipe is a loose lay system, so if the floor is of such a standard where the boards do not have full contact with the sub floor, then the substrate needs attention.
SLC (self levelling compound) should be used to rectify this, builders are not renowned for being able to level a floor to a standard that is required for a good tiling installation.
Good levelling work is a knack, as SLC doesn't do exactly what it says on the tin! As its a not a liquid per se!
What is the final decorative covering?
Polypipe themselves do not advocate the use of an SLC over their heating system, they feel that this will dislodge their pipe work, although we have yet to see proof.
Most adhesive manufacturers suggest 5-10mm of SLC to cover the heating system and then the introduction of a decoupling membrane/crack mat.
Then the final covering.
Essentially tho the substrate MUST be flat and load bearing before introduction of the Polypipe!
Click to expand...
Yes - the floor has already had loads of SLC put down - I think the builder went through nearly 20 bags of the stuff! So it's pretty flat - we are just waiting for the plasterers to be finished in the next day or so then can clear everything out and have a good look. Perhaps, as you say, it won't be quite perfect though. Maybe we should get a tiler out before the boards go down to have a look? Thanks for the useful advice.
 
I've tiled a few of these, it's a minefield out there for information, as Ali says they say tile straight on top (or used too) Webber say it needs SLC over it 1st , it's a pain really, I've tiled straight on top and over SLC and never had a problem with it .
I actually thought the cement boards were screwed down as well??
 
Apart from the one I did with Marc the last time I tiled straight over these boards was two years ago. I'm about to do a second, for the same builder.
The builders had repeat business from the client two years ago. The floor is ad spot on now as it was when it went in.

I've got another now for the same builder. Only difference this time is its travertine rather than polished porcelain.

Now he's levelled the floor with slc, glued the boards with no nails or an equivalent and screwed straight through also.

I posted a little while back about this system with this job in mind:

Polypipe says no to SLC, they also suggest tiling direct.
There is absolutely minimal expansion in these boards, yet with stone it's recommended to decouple. But i fail to see any advantage to it direct to the boards.

Absolutely right @widler it's a minefield. Every possible option will have someone frowning, not guaranteeing or suggesting alternative methods.
 
don't listen to a word they say, how can they spec a system to install tiles on there product when they don't even do tests they're technical are clueless.
I did one a few years ago and they told me to tile straight on top with a spf no priming either and leave the boards floating, I'm pretty sure there boards are gypsum based or was gypsum based at the time when I installed my floor.
The only adhesive company that would commit at the time was Norcross and they required the boards fixed in to the timber floor below Then primer until no more would soak in. Then slc 10mm thick and then that would give the strength of over plying in 18mm. Then a spf adhesive. They insisted that decoupling mat wasn't required even though it was a limestone going down and the customer didn't want the added cost so straight on top. It must be three years or more and no problems with it.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Tilemaster are of similar opinion!
Spoke at length with @Glynn recently on the subject.
They would prefer 5-10 SLC then their crack mat for stone installation.
If no mat they'd want their S2 ultimate used as adhesive.
I think, haha it's been few weeks. 🙄
 
3_fall said:
Which ones Craig?
Polypipe or overlay?
Click to expand...
The polypipe boards marc, the 1st one i did a few years ago were screwed into the substrate then just tiled ontop of the pipes .
I actually don't see the advantage of putting cement boards ovr the top, i don't see it being a problem but i don't see a advantage 🙂

Id ask your tiler or maybe someone off here is in your area, some nice lads one here @moodle
 
The ends of the boards are meant to be glued together when installed, making one big sheet!
At least that's how it was explained to me!
However, I'd still fix a few screws through boards to reassure myself.
But as u can imagine, once the boards are one, then pipes and water, it would be a pretty heavy installation which in theory doesn't expand or contract. 🙄

The boards prevent the pipes being encased in SLC which they say will make it fail!

They're only happy with adhesive because it's not fluid and sits on top!

I'm certainly not saying they're correct.
Personally I'd put my faith in the adhesive companies!
It's them I'm relying on to achieve a successful install not bloody Polypipe!
 
Thanks all, this is very useful! Don't suppose there are any tilers with experience of this system in the Liverpool area?
 
Bit far for me,that drive down the m60/62 drives me insane, id end up doing time for muuurrrrdder if i drove down thatthing for more than 5 days 🙁
 
Out of interest @3_fall why is SLC spec'd by TM.
There's a lot of sense to SLC over electric UFH. A lot of positives to its use.

The way I see it there boards are effectively a cement backer. The pipes are never going to "Float" out. The piping is a barrier pipe so it's expansion is accommodated and very minimal.
With all that in mind I see no benefit to a decoupler if tiled direct.
If the floor is sound and level and the boards are as such too. I see no need to SLC.
So surely a flexible adhesive is more than apt?
 
Ok. But SLC would only be required over timber right. Concrete would surely be stable enough if secured to it?
 
AliGage said:
Out of interest @3_fall why is SLC spec'd by TM.
There's a lot of sense to SLC over electric UFH. A lot of positives to its use.

The way I see it there boards are effectively a cement backer. The pipes are never going to "Float" out. The piping is a barrier pipe so it's expansion is accommodated and very minimal.
With all that in mind I see no benefit to a decoupler if tiled direct.
If the floor is sound and level and the boards are as such too. I see no need to SLC.
So surely a flexible adhesive is more than apt?
Click to expand...

Well it's been spec'd by Weber, TM and Norcross so far in this thread alone!
I'd imagine even on a concrete base, one of its benefits is to eliminate air pockets, if air pockets exist they will heat to a much higher temperature will they not?
And the SLC will give a much more even distribution of heat.
Rather than lines of intense heat running thro the adhesive.

Could be wrong, but that's how I figure it Ali.

I struggle to see how laying a fragile trav floor direct to hot water pipes is never gonna have issues!
And apart from anything else if it's that cheap and there as much filler as stone, it's a disaster waiting to happen!
The stone and the resin do not expand and contract at the same rate, and it'll pop the resin!

Im convinced it'll crack!

But it's not my project, if you're happy Alister then go for it, but I'm never gonna agree with u on It haha sorry mate. 🙂

I'd love you to prove me wrong and we can put this subject to bed once and for all! God please! Hahaha
 
3_fall said:
Well it's been spec'd by Weber, TM and Norcross so far in this thread alone![/U]
I'd imagine even on a concrete base, one of its benefits is to eliminate air pockets, if air pockets exist they will heat to a much higher temperature will they not?
And the SLC will give a much more even distribution of heat.
Rather than lines of intense heat running thro the adhesive.

Could be wrong, but that's how I figure it Ali.

I struggle to see how laying a fragile trav floor direct to hot water pipes is never gonna have issues!
And apart from anything else if it's that cheap and there as much filler as stone, it's a disaster waiting to happen!
The stone and the resin do not expand and contract at the same rate, and it'll pop the resin!

Im convinced it'll crack!

But it's not my project, if you're happy Alister then go for it, but I'm never gonna agree with u on It haha sorry mate. 🙂

I'd love you to prove me wrong and we can put this subject to bed once and for all! God please! Hahaha
Click to expand...

You are quite right in what you are saying, why can't we tile directly to the overlay system? The simple answer is that you can, but due to the fact that we have had a varied response from Polypipe's technical department in the past, we decided to put our own system together.

My understanding is that the overlay boards are not supposed to be screwed to the substrate because it isolates each individual board and therefore the system does not move as one / act as a floating system. As you quite rightly said in an earlier post, if the substrate on which the overlay boards are laid/applied is flat and smooth then this system going down as a floating system works fine - if the substrate is uneven it needs preparing and levelling first.

Levelling the overlay boards prior to fixing tiles gives you a smooth and uniformed surface on which to fix tiles, it fills the voids/channels where the pipes sit and in my opinion makes the job of fixing tiles that little bit easier. There is no need to apply 10mm of leveller, a coat of approximately 4 - 5mm throughout is adequate - well that's using a product such as Levelflex.

The reason why we advise customers to use an uncoupler is purely for extra protection, due to expansion and contraction etc. If asked the question, we would prefer to play on the side of caution.
Strictly speaking, there is no reason why you can't tile directly to this system providing the overlay boards have been fitted correctly. I know of customers who have fixed directly using an S2 adhesive and a grout with additional flexi additive and this has worked absolutely fine.
The 3 options that we would propose are as follows:
1, Prime boards. Use Ultimate S2 to fix Tilemaster Anti-fracture Mat. Ultimate S2 to fix tiles and then grout with Grout 3000. This option is using Anti-fracture Mat as insurance should there be lateral movement.
2, Prime boards. Use Ultimate S2 to fix tiles directly to the overlay boards. Grout with Grout 3000 and add Flexmaster additive as a dilution rate of 2 parts water to 1 part Flexmaster to the Grout 3000 - this gives the Grout 3000 similar flexural properties to Ultimate adhesive.
3, Prime boards. Levelflex to a depth of around 4 - 5mm. Ultimate adhesive to fix the tiles and grout with Grout 3000.

All 3 systems above have worked perfectly well on several projects in the past and there is no reason why this shouldn't continue.
I hope this helps.
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Thank you @Mark@Tilemaster

One quick question. I was Always under the impression/led to believe that there is no expansion or lateral movement in the boards.

I've tiled on these in the past directly and have seen two years on that all is chipper. As good mow as when I first tiled it.

I agree with using crack suppression mats with stone. Struggled to convince the builder of its use on this job mind. Although to a point he agreed but the boards went in bang on. So I then had the challenge of talking them into SLC just to use a mat. On the floor I have around 80sqm so would be a considerable expense.
 
One quick question. I was Always under the impression/led to believe that there is no expansion or lateral movement in the boards.

That's also my understanding. I have had a couple of meetings with a company called Cellecta who produce a very similar board to the Polypipe overlay board and they say the same, they assure me that their boards do not move laterally - well they do but at an extremely low rate. Cellecta have assured me that providing the Cellecta panels/boards are fitted correctly (flush to the subfloor) then tiling directly to their systems is fine.
As I mentioned above, we are happy for customers to tile directly to the Polypipe Overlay but when doing so we would recommend our S2 adhesive followed by the Grout 3000 with flexi additive. If fixing a Natural Stone Tile to these systems you would need to use an uncoupling matt or anti-fracture mat.
 

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