Polypipe Overlay Advice

[moodle]

Hi, looking for advice with regard to Polypipe overlay.

We have bought this already for a 30m2 area (kitchen and extension). My husband is going to put the Polypipe boards down, we have a plumber lined up to make the connections and then we will need to find a tiler to tile on top. So it's only a partial DIY job - the Polypipe boards. The builder has put self leveller down on the concrete floor and it's mainly okay - but there is a slight bit of play in some areas when you put a board down. With this in mind, should he glue the boards to the floor? If so, what should he use to do that? Flexible adhesive? Could the boards be screwed down too?

Also, when we find a tiler to do the job, is there anything he should be aware of? I read somewhere that there should be a decoupling membrane to put down before it is tiled - is this correct? And can anyone recommend a good adhesive to buy?

Basically, if anyone has experience of fitting this system, any tips would be be greatly appreciated. Thanks in advance!

 

[Lee@emctiles]

think there is some info on this thread re polypipe

Polypipe Overlay System

Just make sure your tiler doesn't tile directly onto the polypipe system. Recommend you either use a cement backer board like NO MORE PLY (other brands are available) or a decoupler (dural/ditra ect)

i would be tempted to put some more leveller down, then stick boards down with a flexible adhesive.

 

[Martyn Leeds]

I'd invite a tiler to come round for a look-see first.
Otherwise he'll turn-up and have to rely on what everyone else has done - like many of us have to every week

Obviously it'll be perfect and alright to tile cos the builder will say so

 

[Old Mod]

Hi and welcome to the forum moodle!

Essentially Polypipe is a loose lay system, so if the floor is of such a standard where the boards do not have full contact with the sub floor, then the substrate needs attention.
SLC (self levelling compound) should be used to rectify this, builders are not renowned for being able to level a floor to a standard that is required for a good tiling installation.
Good levelling work is a knack, as SLC doesn't do exactly what it says on the tin! As its a not a liquid per se!
What is the final decorative covering?
Polypipe themselves do not advocate the use of an SLC over their heating system, they feel that this will dislodge their pipe work, although we have yet to see proof.
Most adhesive manufacturers suggest 5-10mm of SLC to cover the heating system and then the introduction of a decoupling membrane/crack mat.
Then the final covering.
Essentially tho the substrate MUST be flat and load bearing before introduction of the Polypipe!

 

[moodle]

Thanks, Lee will have a look at the other thread. Sounds like you've had some bad experiences Martin!

 

[Old Mod]

The method Polypipe suggest is to over board first as Lee above suggested then SLC to level then tile.

 

[moodle]

Hi and welcome to the forum moodle!

Essentially Polypipe is a loose lay system, so if the floor is of such a standard where the boards do not have full contact with the sub floor, then the substrate needs attention.
SLC (self levelling compound) should be used to rectify this, builders are not renowned for being able to level a floor to a standard that is required for a good tiling installation.
Good levelling work is a knack, as SLC doesn't do exactly what it says on the tin! As its a not a liquid per se!
What is the final decorative covering?
Polypipe themselves do not advocate the use of an SLC over their heating system, they feel that this will dislodge their pipe work, although we have yet to see proof.
Most adhesive manufacturers suggest 5-10mm of SLC to cover the heating system and then the introduction of a decoupling membrane/crack mat.
Then the final covering.
Essentially tho the substrate MUST be flat and load bearing before introduction of the Polypipe!

Yes - the floor has already had loads of SLC put down - I think the builder went through nearly 20 bags of the stuff! So it's pretty flat - we are just waiting for the plasterers to be finished in the next day or so then can clear everything out and have a good look. Perhaps, as you say, it won't be quite perfect though. Maybe we should get a tiler out before the boards go down to have a look? Thanks for the useful advice.

 

[AliGage]

Just make sure your tiler doesn't tile directly onto the polypipe system.

Yet this is exactly what polypipe recommend/suggest for the installation of tiles over there system.

 

[widler]

I've tiled a few of these, it's a minefield out there for information, as Ali says they say tile straight on top (or used too) Webber say it needs SLC over it 1st , it's a pain really, I've tiled straight on top and over SLC and never had a problem with it .
I actually thought the cement boards were screwed down as well??

 

[Old Mod]

I actually thought the cement boards were screwed down as well??

Which ones Craig?
Polypipe or overlay?

 

[AliGage]

Apart from the one I did with Marc the last time I tiled straight over these boards was two years ago. I'm about to do a second, for the same builder.
The builders had repeat business from the client two years ago. The floor is ad spot on now as it was when it went in.

I've got another now for the same builder. Only difference this time is its travertine rather than polished porcelain.

Now he's levelled the floor with slc, glued the boards with no nails or an equivalent and screwed straight through also.

I posted a little while back about this system with this job in mind:

Polypipe says no to SLC, they also suggest tiling direct.
There is absolutely minimal expansion in these boards, yet with stone it's recommended to decouple. But i fail to see any advantage to it direct to the boards.

Absolutely right @widler it's a minefield. Every possible option will have someone frowning, not guaranteeing or suggesting alternative methods.

 

[AD Ceramics]

don't listen to a word they say, how can they spec a system to install tiles on there product when they don't even do tests they're technical are clueless.
I did one a few years ago and they told me to tile straight on top with a spf no priming either and leave the boards floating, I'm pretty sure there boards are gypsum based or was gypsum based at the time when I installed my floor.
The only adhesive company that would commit at the time was Norcross and they required the boards fixed in to the timber floor below Then primer until no more would soak in. Then slc 10mm thick and then that would give the strength of over plying in 18mm. Then a spf adhesive. They insisted that decoupling mat wasn't required even though it was a limestone going down and the customer didn't want the added cost so straight on top. It must be three years or more and no problems with it.

 

[Old Mod]

Tilemaster are of similar opinion!
Spoke at length with @Glynn recently on the subject.
They would prefer 5-10 SLC then their crack mat for stone installation.
If no mat they'd want their S2 ultimate used as adhesive.
I think, haha it's been few weeks.

 

[widler]

Which ones Craig?
Polypipe or overlay?

The polypipe boards marc, the 1st one i did a few years ago were screwed into the substrate then just tiled ontop of the pipes .
I actually don't see the advantage of putting cement boards ovr the top, i don't see it being a problem but i don't see a advantage

Id ask your tiler or maybe someone off here is in your area, some nice lads one here @moodle

 

[Old Mod]

The ends of the boards are meant to be glued together when installed, making one big sheet!
At least that's how it was explained to me!
However, I'd still fix a few screws through boards to reassure myself.
But as u can imagine, once the boards are one, then pipes and water, it would be a pretty heavy installation which in theory doesn't expand or contract.

The boards prevent the pipes being encased in SLC which they say will make it fail!

They're only happy with adhesive because it's not fluid and sits on top!

I'm certainly not saying they're correct.
Personally I'd put my faith in the adhesive companies!
It's them I'm relying on to achieve a successful install not bloody Polypipe!

 

[moodle]

Thanks all, this is very useful! Don't suppose there are any tilers with experience of this system in the Liverpool area?

 

[AD Ceramics]

Thanks all, this is very useful! Don't suppose there are any tilers with experience of this system in the Liverpool area?

Ay up moodle. I'm in Manchester if that's any good if you need anything.

 

[widler]

Bit far for me,that drive down the m60/62 drives me insane, id end up doing time for muuurrrrdder if i drove down thatthing for more than 5 days

 

[AliGage]

Out of interest @3_fall why is SLC spec'd by TM.
There's a lot of sense to SLC over electric UFH. A lot of positives to its use.

The way I see it there boards are effectively a cement backer. The pipes are never going to "Float" out. The piping is a barrier pipe so it's expansion is accommodated and very minimal.
With all that in mind I see no benefit to a decoupler if tiled direct.
If the floor is sound and level and the boards are as such too. I see no need to SLC.
So surely a flexible adhesive is more than apt?

 

[AD Ceramics]

Norcross said the slc was to strengthen and make sure no air pockets around pipes. The only way they would spec the job.

 

[AliGage]

Strengthen What? The board itself? Was that over timber or screed sub?

 

[AD Ceramics]

Strengthen What? The board itself? Was that over timber or screed sub?

Overlay was fixed to timber floor so just to give it more rigidity I presume just like over plying floorboards make the whole floor one unit.

 

[AliGage]

Ok. But SLC would only be required over timber right. Concrete would surely be stable enough if secured to it?

 

[AD Ceramics]

Ok. But SLC would only be required over timber right. Concrete would surely be stable enough if secured to it?

Going of Norcross the slc was to make sure no air pockets as well.

 

[Old Mod]

Out of interest @3_fall why is SLC spec'd by TM.
There's a lot of sense to SLC over electric UFH. A lot of positives to its use.

The way I see it there boards are effectively a cement backer. The pipes are never going to "Float" out. The piping is a barrier pipe so it's expansion is accommodated and very minimal.
With all that in mind I see no benefit to a decoupler if tiled direct.
If the floor is sound and level and the boards are as such too. I see no need to SLC.
So surely a flexible adhesive is more than apt?

Well it's been spec'd by Weber, TM and Norcross so far in this thread alone!
I'd imagine even on a concrete base, one of its benefits is to eliminate air pockets, if air pockets exist they will heat to a much higher temperature will they not?
And the SLC will give a much more even distribution of heat.
Rather than lines of intense heat running thro the adhesive.

Could be wrong, but that's how I figure it Ali.

I struggle to see how laying a fragile trav floor direct to hot water pipes is never gonna have issues!
And apart from anything else if it's that cheap and there as much filler as stone, it's a disaster waiting to happen!
The stone and the resin do not expand and contract at the same rate, and it'll pop the resin!

Im convinced it'll crack!

But it's not my project, if you're happy Alister then go for it, but I'm never gonna agree with u on It haha sorry mate.

I'd love you to prove me wrong and we can put this subject to bed once and for all! God please! Hahaha