D
DHTiling
Chers Alan. Us it same screeners.
Chers Alan. Us it same screeners.
Does that not say an awful lot.... Clearly the other job that you know about is different n some way... I presume it is nt one of your own jobs
How long do they need to be in the market in order to be considered a permanent fixture??
T
The D
PVA has been around for a long time and is still used in the building industry BUT it is not suitable when it come to tiling.
J
jonnyc
alan . yes the job is not mine but i know all about it. the point i was making was that if there does become a problem and floor has not been testes properly as you yourself advise us then the tiler wont have a leg to stand on will he?
I have done what dave says he does untilcouple of years ago and thankfully i was ok.
Pva has been about since its discovery in 1912....
gypsum based floors have been found in Ancient Rome .... These were often mosaic tiled of course......
B
bugs183
Same circular argument here...
this is why i've given up, you ask questions and get the same standard 'ideal' installation guides, which simply are not applicable to the real world.
No one is regulating the screeders, the adhesives simply aren't working well enough and it's us tilers that Will be held responcible.
If you tile it it's all down to you, no one else will back you.
These screeds are just not worth it and EVERY builder i know has gone vack to cement screeds as they create so much hassle.
this is why i've given up, you ask questions and get the same standard 'ideal' installation guides, which simply are not applicable to the real world.
No one is regulating the screeders, the adhesives simply aren't working well enough and it's us tilers that Will be held responcible.
If you tile it it's all down to you, no one else will back you.
These screeds are just not worth it and EVERY builder i know has gone vack to cement screeds as they create so much hassle.
J
jonnyc
alan. if you get a chance could you post why these screeds are so much better or fast track than normal ones.
its true they are quick to lay but unless they can commission heating and force dry as soon as recommended then there is no saving in time that i can see at all.
As i posted yesterday not one of the contractors who have had these screeds laid on which i have laid tiles have gone back for more of same.
They all tried it because they thought it would same time and hassle but it does not seem to work that way.
i think you are doing a great job helping educate tilers about how we should approach these screeds.
few years ago i was certainly not getting this type of information from screed companies.
but in my eyes it still does not make them any better option than sand/cement fibres .
in addition there are these screed accelarators now which dont cost that much and most of the contractors i work for on new builds use this method now.
its true they are quick to lay but unless they can commission heating and force dry as soon as recommended then there is no saving in time that i can see at all.
As i posted yesterday not one of the contractors who have had these screeds laid on which i have laid tiles have gone back for more of same.
They all tried it because they thought it would same time and hassle but it does not seem to work that way.
i think you are doing a great job helping educate tilers about how we should approach these screeds.
few years ago i was certainly not getting this type of information from screed companies.
but in my eyes it still does not make them any better option than sand/cement fibres .
in addition there are these screed accelarators now which dont cost that much and most of the contractors i work for on new builds use this method now.
I shall take up your challenge when I have time later on jonnyc.
P
Perfect Tiling
Hi Guys...just an update on the actual job that started this thread. I carried out a moisture check using a hygro box that was leant to me by a vinyl floor fitter who tests before doing his work. I left it on the floor for 3 days and checked it this morning...it came up with a reading of 90% RH. The test the joiner did prior to laying an oak floor cqame back at 70% RH...4 weeks ago!! Either the readings are wrong or the house has a plumbing problem. All the travertine is still solid and the heating under those areas is still off...I assume that the moisture...if any will be able to get out through the travertine even with the floor primed with acrylic. I took up a small cut of travertine today to see how well it was stuck and it came up after a couple of good chisel strikes...with about 5mm of the screed attached to it...surely thats a good sign and agiain IMO points to the customer cranking up the UFH.
If that means is it the same screeders then yes... Otherwise please translate ;p
D
DHTiling
LOL.. Iphone auto correct ..
I meant lafarge using the same screeders as before , but i know the answer now anyway..
M
Master
Hi, the travertine is more hygroscopic than porcelain
M
Mark S
Hi, the fact that it took a couple of hefty chisel strikes, and some 5mm of screed indicates a good bond, again looking like the UFH was cranked up too quick.
M
Mark S
Bugs, as you mentioned the screeders are not being regulated!!!
more often than not a poorly installed anhydrite screed is the root cause of a lot of issues, and the actual screed. There have been too many people that have bought a pump and are now screeders!!
Sand cement screeding is a skilled trade, like tiling or plastering, installing a flowing screed requires an equal ammount of skill, preparation and workmanship, which far too often is missing these days.
But every time the screed gets the bad rep, and not the guys that put it in, who are oftern long gone and have been paid, the rest of us in the industry then have to carry the can.
more often than not a poorly installed anhydrite screed is the root cause of a lot of issues, and the actual screed. There have been too many people that have bought a pump and are now screeders!!
Sand cement screeding is a skilled trade, like tiling or plastering, installing a flowing screed requires an equal ammount of skill, preparation and workmanship, which far too often is missing these days.
But every time the screed gets the bad rep, and not the guys that put it in, who are oftern long gone and have been paid, the rest of us in the industry then have to carry the can.
B
bugs183
Ok Mark i see your point regarding the installation of the screed itself, but If these screeders aren't doing a good job, DON'T sell them the screed, as the implications of these guys doing a poor job (which is most of the time), is wrecking/has wrecked the screeds reputation.
The screed material could be amazing, but at the hands of poorly trained or lazy screeders it's a poor product, and people will go back to conventional screeds.
It's like me sending some numpty round to tile someones house, being told he's done a bad job and saying well the tiles and adhesive are ok, and send him off to do another job. It shows a if i'm honest total disregard to the end user.
There really is so many issues here that people need to talk to you guys face to face to express our many justified concerns.
It's nothing personal, it's just the product.
Look at these threads there is only one guy here who has said he's confident in these screeds, that's not a good percentage.
Sorry for having a bee in my bonnet, but i'm a floor tiler, with a good reputation. Failing floors, whether it's down to adhesives, residual moisture or poor screeding turns that into a bad reputation, i don't really want that.
The screed material could be amazing, but at the hands of poorly trained or lazy screeders it's a poor product, and people will go back to conventional screeds.
It's like me sending some numpty round to tile someones house, being told he's done a bad job and saying well the tiles and adhesive are ok, and send him off to do another job. It shows a if i'm honest total disregard to the end user.
There really is so many issues here that people need to talk to you guys face to face to express our many justified concerns.
It's nothing personal, it's just the product.
Look at these threads there is only one guy here who has said he's confident in these screeds, that's not a good percentage.
Sorry for having a bee in my bonnet, but i'm a floor tiler, with a good reputation. Failing floors, whether it's down to adhesives, residual moisture or poor screeding turns that into a bad reputation, i don't really want that.
M
Mark S
Totally agree,
however I'm not selling rge 'screed' to the screeders, neither is Ajax, we, or the companies we work for, supply the binder for the screed production. The people or companies selling the 'wet' screed are Lafarge, Tarmac, Bardon , Cemex, + some independants.
There used to be years ago a licenced system in opperation to regulate and monitor the screeders, maybe time to resurrect that!!
however I'm not selling rge 'screed' to the screeders, neither is Ajax, we, or the companies we work for, supply the binder for the screed production. The people or companies selling the 'wet' screed are Lafarge, Tarmac, Bardon , Cemex, + some independants.
There used to be years ago a licenced system in opperation to regulate and monitor the screeders, maybe time to resurrect that!!
S
Spud
question for Mark s and Alan, when I tiled on these types of screeds many years ago in germany when sanded they revealed an aggregate which seemed to have a high percentage of quartz sand ,when i recently tiled one over here I sanded the floor back a great deal only to reveal a "fly ash" very fine aggregate with hardly any decent grained aggregate ,i have been told that the anhydrite companies get subsidies to take industrial waste from incinerators to be used in the aggregate for these screeds my question is have the aggregates been changed over the years from quartz sand to some alternative and do you use toxic waste from incinerators in the aggregates for these screeds ?
Ok several questions in one so from the top when sanded the screed should resemble a sand cement screed in texture I.e. coarse but still sound. The sand usually is a grade m concreteing sand but obviously different sands from different quarries have different article gradings. some suppliers also use crushed rck fines which migh appear coarser dueto the particle shape. in the uk we use a lot of what is called river gravel whichs basically ancient river and sea beds but it still has to meet a suitable grading to make it suitable for a pourabe screed. There is deffinitely no fly ash in anhydrite screeds as this interferes with the hemi story in the most spectacular of ways. I am certainly not aware of any subsidies available in the uk for using or taking waste anhydrite, indeed it is a relatively expensive material to buy as the raw material suppliers know that the concrete manufacturers make money at it and charge accordingly.... If there is a subsidy then I don't know about it. Do we use toxic waste .... Absolutely not. The raw material is generally a bi product of acid manufacture. Not from waste incinerators. When you make certain acids you make anhydrous calcium sulphate as your waste material. This was sent to landfill or bulldozed into lakes and rivers many years ago but since it became a significant substitute for cement in the post Second World War period that landfill was turned into a useful material. there are no known significant risks to life or health from the material. It is highly alkaline and the binder is a fine powder so obvious precautions need to be taken but no there is no toxic waste in it..... Hemi hydrates which is the ther binder is much more modern in terms if its introduction to screed use and that is the material produced by calcining (heat treating) the waste from the flue gas desilphurisation process in coal fired power stations. This process was introduced to reduce the issues that such facilities cause with "acid rain" which is basically dilute sulphuric acid. More of this is now used in plasterboard than in screed in the UK.
M
Mark S
Gary,
I see Ajax has answered your questions. I can only reiterate what he has put, the only thing I came across recently was the use of re-cycled crushed glass, as an aggregate, that had not been washed, and it smelt awful.
As far as we can tell ALL the major producers meet strict gradings of sand to make a good flowing screed, we are unaware of any subsidies.
I see Ajax has answered your questions. I can only reiterate what he has put, the only thing I came across recently was the use of re-cycled crushed glass, as an aggregate, that had not been washed, and it smelt awful.
As far as we can tell ALL the major producers meet strict gradings of sand to make a good flowing screed, we are unaware of any subsidies.
M
Master
Hi, possible solution on this case remove the grout on floor/wall joint to relax the humidity of screed by sides
sorry for my English
Victor Spain
sorry for my English
Victor Spain
J
Joy1979
Ironically unless you have anything in writing confirming floor was tested and passed all appropriate readings ready for installation of tiling, you the tiler will be at fault if no evidence to support, as you didn't get confirmation or check that tiling can commence, once you start fixing you can't go vack.
There are similar tiling threads here
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