Relaid quarry tiles

[pauly]

Hi, I'm renovating a Victorian terraced house, one of the downstairs quarry tiled floors was uneven so I lifted the tiles and cleaned off the old sand/cement base material. My builder levelled the earth and installed a DPM , and then laid a new sand/cement base before relaying the original tiles, this was around a week ago, I've noticed random tiles are loose, it was easy to lift one of the loose tiles and when I did I was suprised to find the tiles around the lifted one weren't stuck down either, what options to bond the tiles to the base are there ?. Thanks.

Paul

 

[White Room]

The fact a dpm was laid over earth bothers me, how long before the tiles were fixed after the the screed was laid and how thick was it, the screed that is...

 

[pauly]

I think I know what you mean about the DPM, the intention is/was to have the walls chemically damp proofed and bond the DPM to the walls. The screed was laid in sections approx 2-3ft wide across the width of the room and the tiles were laid before moving on to the next section, I'm not sure exactly how thick the screed is, I'd say around 3 inches.

 

[Andrew Case]

Sounds to me like the screed hasn't been allowed to dry. Should be left for a day per 1mm up to 40mm and then 0.5mm / day after that. (I think). One of the pro's will confirm.

 

[pauly]

Sounds to me like the screed hasn't been allowed to dry. Should be left for a day per 1mm up to 40mm and then 0.5mm / day after that. (I think). One of the pro's will confirm.

Thanks for the replies so far, I should have made it clear the quarry tiles were laid directly onto the sand/cement mix as it was put down, my mistake for using the term screed when it was sand/cement. I'm assuming if the mix was too dry the tiles wouldn't bond to it ?.

 

[nybor62]

i understand the method your builder has used , and by the sound of it he as done it wrong , did he use a cement slurry at all when fixing tiles

i reckon the floor will need to be redone , builders are not tilers , all though alot think they are , get your builder back out to sort it, or employ a tiler at your builders expense

 

[Andrew Case]

i understand the method your builder has used , and by the sound of it he as done it wrong , did he use a cement slurry at all when fixing tiles

i reckon the floor will need to be redone , builders are not tilers , all though alot think they are , get your builder back out to sort it, or employ a tiler at your builders expense

Beat me to it. I agree with this. I was taught that a slurry should be used and back butter the tiles perhaps?! Ill be set straight too shortly.

 

[pauly]

Hi again, I'd just like to know what I'm talking about when I let the builder know there is an issue. When I first lifted the tiles it was a struggle initially as they were well stuck down and I had to use a bolster chisel to remove the old base from some of them. Assuming all the tiles lift easily would it be possible to lift a section at a time and apply some slurry ?. Thanks all.

 

[nybor62]

any pics of the job please , might help us guide you better

 

[swanman]

Im confused now

Do they lift easy or are they well stuck down

If Thats the case take up the ones that are loose and leave the ones that are stuck. :8:

 

[Rizzle from the Portizzle]

if this was laid in sand and cement are the loose tiles a foot stride a part sounds like some one walked on them while still wet now the cement has gone off you will have to restick with s1 tile adhesive

 

[Time's Ran Out]

When Paul originally took up the tiles they were well fixed.
After cleaning they were 'laid' into a semi dry sand/cement screed by the builder.
As the tiles were not slurry backed for fixing, the process of tamping the tiles into the bed has brought moisture to the surface of the screed and when dried out the lack of adhesion has caused them to come loose.
You can use a green screed adhesive on the loose tiles to refix them but whether this will caused a slight height issue against those that remain is to be seen.
What has he grouted them with if they can be picked up?

 

[pauly]

When Paul originally took up the tiles they were well fixed.
After cleaning they were 'laid' into a semi dry sand/cement screed by the builder.
As the tiles were not slurry backed for fixing, the process of tamping the tiles into the bed has brought moisture to the surface of the screed and when dried out the lack of adhesion has caused them to come loose.
You can use a green screed adhesive on the loose tiles to refix them but whether this will caused a slight height issue against those that remain is to be seen.
What has he grouted them with if they can be picked up?

That's right, I removed the old base material from the bottom of the tiles but 1 or 2mm of the original cement grout remained on the sides of some tiles, trying to remove this old grout broke the tiles so not all the tiles were square, the idea was regrouting would fill any gaps. I was told a soft sand/cement mix was used for grouting but whether this was wet or dry I dont know.

 

[Time's Ran Out]

The sides could have been cleaned with an angle grinder!
Grout mix should have been fairly damp/wet and this may have helped in the keying.

 

[pauly]

Pics at the moment would just be of the tiled floor I'll try and get some when a few tiles are removed. The tile I just lifted had none of the new sand/cement base stuck to it. I'd estimate around 15% of the tiles are loose at the moment, pulling and sticking those may cure the problem or reveal a lot more non stuck tiles.:yikes:

 

[pauly]

I've mailed the builder to advise him there's a problem, I think it's going to be a days work to lift the tiles and relay them with something sticky, if the builder agrees all well and good, if not where do I stand legally as regards paying for the job ?.

 

[Andrew Case]

I've mailed the builder to advise him there's a problem, I think it's going to be a days work to lift the tiles and relay them with something sticky, if the builder agrees all well and good, if not where do I stand legally as regards paying for the job ?.

You paid your builder to do a job - if its definite that he hasn't done it properly, through lack of knowledge or skills, then you shouldn't have to pay. He should put it right at his expense and then you pay.

 

[pauly]

You paid your builder to do a job - if its definite that he hasn't done it properly, through lack of knowledge or skills, then you shouldn't have to pay. He should put it right at his expense and then you pay.

That makes sense but as it's part other work done which was satisfactory I dont know if it's right to withold part payment or the whole bill ?.

 

[bugs183]

Don't pay him until the job is done properly.
I think you'll struggle to pull the tiles up, bed them back with adhesive and keep a flat floor. The action of 'tamping' the tiles in makes a key for each individual tile, these tiles are not uniform in depth and just turning the tile round could result in the tile being at a different height.
Really this floor should come up and be laid properly, with the floor being screeded and then either portland added to the top or better still combing a bed of slow drying adhesive onto the screed before the tiles are laid.
There is nothing to stop the others from working loose.

 

[bugs183]

Pay him for everything else, if it meets your satisfaction, but hold back the agreed price for the floor.
I personally don't think it's fair to not pay because of one problem.

 

[Andrew Case]

Pay him for everything else, if it meets your satisfaction, but hold back the agreed price for the floor.
I personally don't think it's fair to not pay because of one problem.

Sorry should have been more specific - dont pay him for the tiling part. Obviously pay him for the other work if its satisfactory

 

[pauly]

Thanks for all the advice so far, I wont be living in the house it will be rented out or sold, I think I'll be putting laminate over the top when it's sorted out and putting this one down to experience, in the future I'll be careful about which trade does what. I'll post an update after the builder has been round.

 

[mz30]

Earth?was this an internal or external fix? am assuming that its an old screed and not actually earth/soil(under the foundation) and when i say that they have'nt actually dug below the subfloor?

 

[Dan]

Actually, this is a tricky one. You're meant to pay in full, then proceed legally via small claims or otherwise, to show the work was not done to standard, and then he has to pay to put it right.

But you ARE meant to pay in full for ALL completed works, whether it's perfect or not. And then argue from there.

Which is why it's always best to stay in healthy positive dialogue with them and never do business by text message, and always try to speak on the phone so no wires get crossed.

Say you want this, this and this doing, and you'd rather see it done before the final bill is paid, and take it from there.

The reason for that is due to "customers" ripping off tradesmen in the past. There was a bloke in the news a few years ago who didn't get paid for erecting a doorway to a house, he took a sledgehammer to it right in front of the news reporters, and he nearly got done for it. Even though he didn't get paid, it was then the customers property he was taking a hammer to.

Another bloke did a drive, only got paid for half the drive, so started taking it up. The police were called, he was arrested, he had to go to court BEFORE taking any more up and prove he had only been paid for 50% - in the end the court said you can take 50% of it back up.

Don't withhold payment though else it could go against you if your end up arguing legally over who needs to do what next. You wouldn't want to have to pay him, and then him refuse to work for you, or rectify it.

So to be harsh and go against the grain here. Not read the whole thread either, just the last few posts.

 

[Andrew Case]

Learn everyday Dan. That's good advice and something I'll remember.