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S

Spearce

A crack of about 2 metres long 3mm wide has appeared in our floor after the underfloor heating has been switched on. Screed is sand a cement mix by builder on site. Floor area 5 x 6 metres. Screed was drying without heating for 90 days. Heating switched up to temp gradually. The builder also doing the tiling has said this is normal for the floor and can be tiled on. We can not put additional height on the floor as matched with existing floor. Can we lay the stone marble tiles on this? There seems to be no further cracks or movement for the last few days. Any help will be much appreciated.
 

Ajax123

TF
Esteemed
Arms
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Lincolnshire
A crack of about 2 metres long 3mm wide has appeared in our floor after the underfloor heating has been switched on. Screed is sand a cement mix by builder on site. Floor area 5 x 6 metres. Screed was drying without heating for 90 days. Heating switched up to temp gradually. The builder also doing the tiling has said this is normal for the floor and can be tiled on. We can not put additional height on the floor as matched with existing floor. Can we lay the stone marble tiles on this? There seems to be no further cracks or movement for the last few days. Any help will be much appreciated.

Absolutely not...unless you want the stone to crack also. You should be using an uncoupling membrane with stone on heated sand cement. The crack is most likely secondary shrinkage.
 

Ajax123

TF
Esteemed
Arms
931
1,213
Lincolnshire
can you tell us more about secondary shrinkage please alan ,why and how it can be avoided if it can mate :thumbsup:

When you add water to cement in a sand cement screed it undergoes two basic mechanisms which cause it to shrink. The first is that water evaporates and the second is the apid hydration of the cement. These cause the screed to shrink in its early life. This effect is called primary shrinkage. Coupled with lack of compaction which leads to intrinsic weakness in the screed these are the primary causes of early age cracking in cement based materials.

Once the screed has set and become rigid and has ostensibly dried there will always be some moisture present and as long as this is there the hydration reaction continues. This hydration coupled with carbonation of the screed means tha for very long periods (years and years in some instances) the screed continues to shrink very slowly. This causes further cracking over time. This is called secondary shrinkage.

The ways to minimise this sort of cracking are to ensure that the screed is cured properly initially, ensure that it is fully compacted and does not dry too rapidly. This way it can build up enough internal strength to overcome the effects of the shrinkage. Lastly it must be remembered that this secondary shrinkage will always occur regardless of you efforts so correct screed design ais also essential I.e. joints in the right places and bay sizes not over sized.

Polypropylene fibres can also help but these deal mostly with primary shrinkage.


Hope this helps although much oversimplified....... :)
 
A

AJPlumbing

When you add water to cement in a sand cement screed it undergoes two basic mechanisms which cause it to shrink. The first is that water evaporates and the second is the apid hydration of the cement. These cause the screed to shrink in its early life. This effect is called primary shrinkage. Coupled with lack of compaction which leads to intrinsic weakness in the screed these are the primary causes of early age cracking in cement based materials.Once the screed has set and become rigid and has ostensibly dried there will always be some moisture present and as long as this is there the hydration reaction continues. This hydration coupled with carbonation of the screed means tha for very long periods (years and years in some instances) the screed continues to shrink very slowly. This causes further cracking over time. This is called secondary shrinkage.The ways to minimise this sort of cracking are to ensure that the screed is cured properly initially, ensure that it is fully compacted and does not dry too rapidly. This way it can build up enough internal strength to overcome the effects of the shrinkage. Lastly it must be remembered that this secondary shrinkage will always occur regardless of you efforts so correct screed design ais also essential I.e. joints in the right places and bay sizes not over sized.Polypropylene fibres can also help but these deal mostly with primary shrinkage.Hope this helps although much oversimplified....... :)
Surely using rebar in the screed is the best policy and avoids the majority of these sorts of cracking issues??
 
Last edited by a moderator:
J

jwatson

would a semi dry screed cope any better with the shrinkage as no where near as much water, and would it help limit secondary effects a long as compacted properly???
When you add water to cement in a sand cement screed it undergoes two basic mechanisms which cause it to shrink. The first is that water evaporates and the second is the apid hydration of the cement. These cause the screed to shrink in its early life. This effect is called primary shrinkage. Coupled with lack of compaction which leads to intrinsic weakness in the screed these are the primary causes of early age cracking in cement based materials.

Once the screed has set and become rigid and has ostensibly dried there will always be some moisture present and as long as this is there the hydration reaction continues. This hydration coupled with carbonation of the screed means tha for very long periods (years and years in some instances) the screed continues to shrink very slowly. This causes further cracking over time. This is called secondary shrinkage.

The ways to minimise this sort of cracking are to ensure that the screed is cured properly initially, ensure that it is fully compacted and does not dry too rapidly. This way it can build up enough internal strength to overcome the effects of the shrinkage. Lastly it must be remembered that this secondary shrinkage will always occur regardless of you efforts so correct screed design ais also essential I.e. joints in the right places and bay sizes not over sized.

Polypropylene fibres can also help but these deal mostly with primary shrinkage.


Hope this helps although much oversimplified....... :)
 
D

Diamond Pool Finishers

original screed IS SEMI-DRY, WHEN MIXED PROPERLY, and if LAID PROPERLY TO BS ,It SHOULD BE WELL COMPACTED , there are so many that think they can screed :yikes: ,that just pick-up the basics, ( builders ) then balls it -up, AJAKS must see lots of these jobs, i even look on line and see so-called pros talking rubbish,in the instructions :smilewinkgrin: ah well you get what you pay for :lol:
 

Ajax123

TF
Esteemed
Arms
931
1,213
Lincolnshire
Surely using rebar in the screed is the best policy and avoids the majority of these sorts of cracking issues??

Sand cement screeds should be reinforced using either d49 steel mesh or polypropylene fibres with the latter being the more popular. These are only to help with plastic shrinkage cracking which is primary shrinkage. They will help to stabilise against long term cracking but will not prevent it entirely. The way to avoid shrinkage racking would be to not use cement I guess.
 
S

Spearce

thank you all for this just got back from work and this is of great help. So to summarise at this stage the thinest matting I can find is best. Can the tile height be lost over the room size when the tiles laid. Or will we have to have a step. Or do we get the builder to do something else. I wish we could get the floor ripped up and started by somebody that knows what they are doing. We feel gutted as we trusted this builder who said he could do it.
 
S

Spearce

just got back from work and some really good stuff from you all. thanks so much. To summarise. we now need to put down some sort of matting down. The thinner the better. If the height of this is to much for the exsisting flooring can this height be lost over the size of the floor. 6m x 4.5m. Wish we could get the floor ripped up and started again. We trusted the builder as he said he could do the job but know wish we got somebody that knew what they were actually doing. thanks again.
 

Ajax123

TF
Esteemed
Arms
931
1,213
Lincolnshire
original screed IS SEMI-DRY, WHEN MIXED PROPERLY, and if LAID PROPERLY TO BS ,It SHOULD BE WELL COMPACTED , there are so many that think they can screed :yikes: ,that just pick-up the basics, ( builders ) then balls it -up, AJAKS must see lots of these jobs, i even look on line and see so-called pros talking rubbish,in the instructions :smilewinkgrin: ah well you get what you pay for :lol:

Yep......
 

Ajax123

TF
Esteemed
Arms
931
1,213
Lincolnshire
how would the argument for a very week mix be , we have laid screed as week as 1-5 1-6 , this helps with less cracking,or what about a bit of lime ? AJAX


This becomes a trade off between strength and malleability. Malleability should ot be confused with flexibility. Old fashioned lime screeds were very weak essentially and they moved like billyo without cracking...Portland cement has a lot to answer for......

Pas long as thereis enough cement to coat the aggregate particles with cement paste so that it holds them together then the water cement ratio can be very low. Typically a water cement ratio of just 0.2 will give you a strong screed but unfortunately you would never compact it.
 

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