Standard Wetroom Former Tile Cuts?

[cornish_crofter]

Can anyone please point me in the direction of a standard set of templates to cut tiles to for laying on formers?

If such a thing does not exist, maybe we should create one.

Rather than having to reinvent the wheel every time, it may be a good idea to build up a library of standard templates for given tile sizes etc for given former sizes.

Certain assumptions would need to be taken on board (such as setting out etc)

I'm using 300 x 300 on this job.

 

[peckers]

There would be too many variables for templates for envelope cuts as there are soo many different size tiles and also it would depend on how it was set out.
I just high light the line(crease area) in the tray where your tiles need to be envelope cut, from the drain to the out side edges of the tray then dry lay the tiles on the tray and where you can see the line that you have high lighted by the drain and to the edge of the tray use a strait edge line it up and mark on the tiles. this is where your cuts need to be and marking them in one go means your envelope cuts will be nice and strait and not wavey.
hope this makes sense.

Or if you have a lazer level then you can use this to run your line up the tray then dry lay tiles and then mark on the tiles where the lazer line is....

 

[cornish_crofter]

That's pretty much what I did last time.

I actually drew the lines on the former before I cut it so I could go to the corners, as it is not easy to see where the actual creases are. I didn't do it this time and I've cut one corner off and fitted it😳

I'll have to mark out the other 3 and go from there.

I've got one of those laser levels that you put in the middle of the room and it rotates to give you a line around the room. I can't see how that could be used to give you a line, unless you just mounted one of those laser line markers in place and used that

 

[peckers]

I've got one of those laser levels that you put in the middle of the room and it rotates to give you a line around the room. I can't see how that could be used to give you a line, unless you just mounted one of those laser line markers in place and used that

Could you put it on its side and let it generate a line on the floor of the former??

 

[White Room]

You can buy cheap one line lasers from diy sheds

 

[cornish_crofter]

You can buy cheap one line lasers from diy sheds

Excellent! I'll pick one up from B&Q next time I buy some of their tiles

:lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol:

 

[Qwerty]

There would be too many variables for templates for envelope cuts as there are soo many different size tiles and also it would depend on how it was set out.
I just high light the line(crease area) in the tray where your tiles need to be envelope cut, from the drain to the out side edges of the tray then dry lay the tiles on the tray and where you can see the line that you have high lighted by the drain and to the edge of the tray use a strait edge line it up and mark on the tiles. this is where your cuts need to be and marking them in one go means your envelope cuts will be nice and strait and not wavey.
hope this makes sense.

Or if you have a lazer level then you can use this to run your line up the tray then dry lay tiles and then mark on the tiles where the lazer line is....

When doing this, and cutting with a dry manual tile cutter, how do you get around making the envelope cut into a regular 2mm (for example) grout line???..... or do you use a wet cutter to make an equivelant 2mm cut?

Ta - Geoff

 

[doug boardley]

When doing this, and cutting with a dry manual tile cutter, how do you get around making the envelope cut into a regular 2mm (for example) grout line???..... or do you use a wet cutter to make an equivelant 2mm cut?

Ta - Geoff

I think you answered your own question there Geoff

 

[Qwerty]

I think you answered your own question there Geoff

Thought as much Doug...cheers

 

[jay]

View attachment 21092View attachment 21091something like this

 

[cornish_crofter]

Jay those look great!

But the problem is for me that they don't 'compute'. How did you manage to get away without the diagonal cuts? I would have thought they would have been essential, especially in the first picture.

 

[vosnack]

Hi. In my opinion it's best to cut tiles into rectangular shape of your future envelope(edge tiles obviously). Lay them in your free space with spacers(I had to lay them in the backyard once, number them each and make a drawing/plan of the layout of pieces), then mark where the drain will be, mark the lines from the corner of the drain to the corners. And finally cut along the lines. Once everything cut to size you can mix some adhesive and start laying them. If the slope is big the cross grout line of your envelope will be getting smaller towards the edge, because you've created 4 surfaces, all on an angle. Don't worry about it at this stage. Once adhesive is set you can get the grinder and gently on the surface(important not to damage the membrane) you can cut out the envelope lines to perfection.
Hope I explained it clearly enough. It works for me.

 

[jay]

View attachment 21136the floors in pics fall correct if you look at the waste thats the secret positioned on the 45 that gives you a cross like effect in shower floor there is about 12 to 15mm fall which is heapes it takes time and patience to do but the end result is worth it

 

[cornish_crofter]

Are the tiles still square, or did you have to trim them slightly to get that effect Jay?

I assume that is not a standard former that you've tiled on top of there, but a screed you've put down yourself?

I still can't get my head round it. I can understand how having the waste at 45 degrees works but to provide the correct fall I would have thought you would have a taper in the centre grout line going across.

 

[jay]

you are correct a rendered base tiles are un cut (that would look bad) on the perimater there is a slight fall from corner to centre then back to level at other corner with envelope style the prob is mainly to much fall causing you to have to bend tile (cut envelope) if drain is square when tile meets it the two good edges of the tile sit flush with drain but the l shaped corner will always sit higher (hope you understand) put the waste on a 45 then you only have one edge to get flush

how much fall do you have on your former

 

[cornish_crofter]

you are correct a rendered base tiles are un cut (that would look bad).

On the perimater there is a slight fall from corner to centre then back to level at other corner.

With envelope style the prob is mainly too much fall causing you to have to bend tile (cut envelope).

If drain is square when tile meets it the two good edges of the tile sit flush with drain but the l shaped corner will always sit higher (hope you understand).*

Put the waste on a 45 then you only have one edge to get flush *

how much fall do you have on your former

Jay, hope you don't mind but I've split your post up above to make it easier for me to understand. The two lines with asterisks (*) I don't understand at all, the rest makes sense.

To answer your question about the former, there is probably less than 10mm. It is a Tilux former, and the creases run diagonally from corner to corner. The last time I fitten one of these I cut it envelope style and had the drain set square.

I am using 300 x 300 tiles and the former is 1200 x 1200, but with a diagonal cut across the back as the back wall is not straight.

I can see how the 45 degree waste help you here. If I did what you did the each crease would run from one corner to the other of the tiles near the waste. Whether I can get a decent fall without building up the adhesive I don't know without looking, should be able to .

 

[cornish_crofter]

Just had another look at your picture, I see what you mean with the last two lines.

With a square set waste I have 2 edges on each tile to get flush with the waste edges. This cannot be achieved as having the tile on a fall will result in the corner of the cut being slightly higher than the edges where the cut meets the good edges of the tiles.

However, with your 45 degree angled waste, there is only one edge to get flush.

I don't know if I can do this with the former I've got, I probably can. However, if you effectively tip the tiles in where they meet on the drain, don't you get tapered grout lines going towards your drain, or do you not notice?

Also, jsut out of interest, how did you cast your former? Did you lay 4 squares with the 4 meeting corners tipping towards the drain? The easiest way I could think of doing that would be to arrange a series of battens tilted to give you the required fall on each corner/quarter, then just cut the screed as you would do for a floor, then backfill where the battens come out with rapid set SPF. I guess you could probably do it by eye by now.

 

[jay]

your starting to get it yes it takes time to get right heres an idea get some sand and level it off then place waste were you want best to be dead center as this helps getting even fall then screed the sand to get falls then with some old tiles try to lay them without enveloping using sand to pack up or remove to lower just as a trial it will surprise you how simple it is best to have waste center on 45 as for water puddling at waste it shouldn't
and tiles must meet center of waste

hope this helps try it and take some pics let us know how you go

with the waste on 45 mark lines over points of waste you should have strait lines meeting in center (so you have centered shower base both ways) paralleled to walls

the screeding of shower base will come with practice sort of hard to explain but perimitre of base should be level then slight fall in to waste

 

[cornish_crofter]

your starting to get it yes it takes time to get right heres an idea get some sand and level it off then place waste were you want best to be dead center as this helps getting even fall then screed the sand to get falls then with some old tiles try to lay them without enveloping using sand to pack up or remove to lower just as a trial it will surprise you how simple it is best to have waste center on 45 as for water puddling at waste it shouldn't
and tiles must meet center of waste

hope this helps try it and take some pics let us know how you go

with the waste on 45 mark lines over points of waste you should have strait lines meeting in center (so you have centered shower base both ways) paralleled to walls

the screeding of shower base will come with practice sort of hard to explain but perimitre of base should be level then slight fall in to waste

The former I'm using is the preformed type and is already down. However it may not be out of the question to lay them like that using a bed of flexable adhesive. Previously when I've fitted one of these and got it slightly uneven, I've corrected it at tiling with a thicker bed of SPF where necessary.

On this job I've got Ditra matting down, which adds about 3mm to the height. I've got the problem of levelling this with the former as I thought I'd made sufficient allowance for it. So I will probably have more fall than the tile former had allowed if I need it.

I think I will lay the tiles out on the former before I do anything and see how it goes. The reason I was asking about the screeded falls in yours is because I may try that next time. Then I can just do the whole floor with Ditra or whatever is necessary and go from there.

I like to use battens/guides for screeds if I can. Recently I laid 3m cubed of concrete and got it almost mm perfect by laying it before I built up the walls above DPC level. I made a straight edge that gave me the right depth below the blockwork and two of us tamped it down, allowing the excess to flow into a ditch in front that we had dug out for a retaining wall in front of the conservatory. I also laid the screed on this job over the non wet area in much the same way using two battens each set to the fall I wanted.

Thanks for your help Jay. Your pictures have given me an idea. If it works it will actually mean less cutting, therefore less work.

 

[jay]

it does work if you have time and patience and looks better good luck and post some pics if you dont mind

jay

 

[cornish_crofter]

Jay.

If you look on this thread you'll see the previous wetroom I did. The photo of the tiled former is a few posts down on the first page.

http://www.tilersforums.com/tilers-forums-arms/17004-wetroom-photos.html

I used a wet cutter for the diagonal cuts.

 

[jay]

yes thats correct for the position of the tiles only suggestion is to carry cutts to the internal corners of the shower room different styles different countries looks ok

 

[cornish_crofter]

yes thats correct for the position of the tiles only suggestion is to carry cutts to the internal corners of the shower room different styles different countries looks ok

The former that I was supplied for that job came as a 1200 x 1200, which I had to cut down to a 1200 x 900 to fit the area. I esentially just cut the tiles to suit the former. I do see what you mean though about taking cuts to the corners of the area.

That was a Tilus former as well.

 

[cornish_crofter]

Jay

I chickened out!

I have just remembered this thread, and to mention that I did the envelope cuts again.

The main problem with the former was that it was designed to take envelope cuts.

I'll post some pics at a later date. Suffice to say I'm pleased with it. I'm about to start the wall tiling.