Tanking law..

[cornish_crofter]

maybe just maybe tiling is no longer the answer to showers etc:huh2:

Hard theroy to consider, though there is a point.

20 plus years ago I saw ready made shower cubicles using what looked to be aluminium sheeting. A school I went to had them and so did a university friend's house.

I've just replaced a shower arrangement that used plastic tile panels made to measure with polystirene as a backing material. These were simply glued onto the plasterboard. The corner was taken care of via a strip of plastic that was supposed to seal. Personally I think Silicon would have been better here, as this joint did leak slightly. The client said they had it fitted some 15 years before.

 

[oogabooga]

Add NZ to that list. Grout is porous, adhesive too (although I accept the polymers in modified varieties might make it less so) and that's what you're relying on to stop water getting into the substrate?. Don't make sense to me. I've torn out tiled showers and I can assure you it can get plenty wet behind the tile and grout.

A whole lot of people in the construction industry here seem to also erroneously think tile adhesive and grout are waterproof for some reason. Only have to point them to the building code to put them straight - must be hard over there when there is no such requirement to refer to.

It's also possible that all these failures will have convinced people to not use tiles in wet areas, one of those urban legends that tiled showers always leak. Heard that one myself when repairing someone else's leaky shower. That surely is one reputation the tile industry doesn't need.

Myself, I would be absolutely livid if I bought a new house and my beautiful tiled shower leaked like a sieve - just because some pointy heads didn't consider tanking necessary:mad2:

 

[sWe]

During the fifties and the begining of the sixties in Sweden, there was a SEVERE shortage of housing. The solution came in the form of what came to be called "the million program", which aimed to create a million homes. It ran from the mid sixties to the mid seventies. Due to the pace and the scale of the program, the cheapest possible materials and methods were often chosen. Before the seventies, bathing in tubs was the norm. During the seventies, the hygiene habits of people changed, and showering became the norm. Bathrooms, especially in the million program homes, weren't designed for that; they lacked proper waterproofing. We're talking concrete structures with mostly atleast partially tiled bathrooms. Water damage became so common and so expensive that something had to be done. It became law that all bathrooms had to be waterproofed etc etc.

Anyways. Nowadays, all tilers in Sweden need a licence to work in bathrooms. To recieve the licence, you have to have done a certain number of hours as an apprentice, followed by a course in waterproofing held by the swedish tiling org, BKR. Having the licence gives you a certain amount of legal protection in case of waterdamage, as long as you applied the waterproofing according to manufacturer instructions. Working in bathrooms without a licence, can result in a fine.

Every bathroom is treated as a wetroom over here, and all the walls and the entire floor has to be waterproofed. The rules are quite strict on what waterproofing systems you can use in any given situation. All waterproofing systems are tested by a government lab, at the manufacturer's expense. The minimum performance levels are decided by the government construction authority, together with BKR.

Here are a couple of pdf's displaying a couple of waterproofing systems which are common over here. They're in swedish, but there are pictures.

broken link removed
http://www.maxit.se/media/22/pdf/fas...ine_Liquid.pdf
http://www.cascose.dk/_upl/pdf/07121...%20Klinker.pdf


We can't use any wood based materials in the substrate at all. Regular plasterboards have been banned in bathrooms, so we have to use fiberglassfaced plasterboards, or fibercementboards, unless the substrate is massive concrete or brick.
All bathroom floors are given a gradient towards the drain.

The rules got even more strict last year. Any substrate made from board materials have to be waterproofed with a steam proof membrane; the roll on dispersions aren't enough according the the new rules.

 

[wetdec]

I think that while having regulations is very useful they can also prove to be a pain as often they are extreme and confuse the issues. I wouldn’t discourage a call for regs on this subject but they are likely to originate in the EU and may not quite what we are expecting. I believe part one has already been worked on but as always nothing is that quick from Europe.

While there are no regs in place I think it’s important to look at the wet room scenario from the outside, if we do this then common sense will show all of us what is required and get us into good practice.

Today and for the last 15yrs houses are shooting up and being thrown together quickly as a result of the UK adoption of systems used in Europe and the USA. Timber frames, single skins, dry lining, Bison beams, Jabolite are all in a way responsible for houses being built without substance but with speed.

Timber frames are great and do the job they were intended for but timber lives and breaths so moves, 6inc concrete floors work and have been used for years but you interrupt the structure with insulation and it’s no longer 6inch but becomes layers of concrete. Combine just these 2 things with heat and the insulation properties demanded of homes and you have structures that move constantly through expansion and contraction.

If we take a proposed wet room / shower room which will generally sit over or close to a kitchen for drainage purposes. A kitchen with a dozen or more electrical points sitting below a room that is at the very least wet and due to its construction moves.

Timber joists settle, ease and vibrate
Floor boards expand, curl and contract
Wall to floor transitions crack and gaps appear
Corners crack and slip
Wood nor plaster board are water proof.

Given these points what direction do we take to keep our kitchen dry and free from water?

Corners and wall to floor transitions need to be made good - this can be done by taping with an angle tape to bond both surfaces together bridging the joint. There is a little more to it than that as bridging the gap will not stop the movement, the answer here is a tape with a flexible elastic central strip. After fixing if there is movement the elasticity accommodates it and the joint doesn’t tear maintaining the seal.

This taping procedure should be carried out first and should be used wherever movement might occur.


Cracking of tiles due to expansion of floors needs addressing – simply fixing an uncoupling membrane such as Dura-ci mat will accommodate the lateral movement of wood floors preventing tile damage and acts a waterproof tanking membrane.


Waterproofing plaster boarded wall areas – many solutions have cropped up over the last months claiming ease and integrity, the majority of these being paint on or spreadable solutions. While this type of solution works perfectly well in the lab, instructions stipulate depth of coating to maintain guarantee and integrity which is almost impossible to ensure on site with a paint brush or roller. The alternative to a liquid membrane is a physical one, a thin waterproof membrane fixed between tiles and background with a flexible tile adhesive. There can be no error if it is physical and installed correctly it WILL stop water ingress and ensure a leak proof tank.


Three simple steps to a good tanking solution easily adopted and making sense. No rocket science involved, if you secure your joints and apply a tanking membrane to your wet area you will avoid problems

A leaking shower will cost you the first £150 of your insurance claim plus loads of grief. A standard shower using one of our physical membrane systems will tank for less than that.

You can see the problems and see they are easily solved no regulation will make it this simple for you…………….but they will come........


tiler

 

[sWe]

Waterproofing plaster boarded wall areas – many solutions have cropped up over the last months claiming ease and integrity, the majority of these being paint on or spreadable solutions. While this type of solution works perfectly well in the lab, instructions stipulate depth of coating to maintain guarantee and integrity which is almost impossible to ensure on site with a paint brush or roller. The alternative to a liquid membrane is a physical one, a thin waterproof membrane fixed between tiles and background with a flexible tile adhesive. There can be no error if it is physical and installed correctly it WILL stop water ingress and ensure a leak proof tank.

I agree that a foil membrane is a better solution in most cases than a liquid one, though I very much prefer systems were the foils are fixed with some sort of wpc or custom dispersion adhesive. I really hate systems which require Silicon to be used in overlaps as well.

 

[wetdec]

LOL ye ok I dont carry a micrometer...............

all tilers in Sweden need a licence to work in bathrooms. To recieve the licence, you have to have done a certain number of hours as an apprentice,

This I can agree with 1000% and believe it would do nothing but good for our industry..........

..

 

[doug boardley]

All new builds I've worked on never seen any tanking kit, That was a couple of years ago though, May have changed since:huh2:

70% of my work is site work, and I've not seen a tanking system yet on any site! Keep pushing site agents in this direction but they tend to shrug their shoulders and mutter about architects making decisions!

 

[wishy]

Hi all, I'm a neewbie poster here but have gained lots of knowledge trawling through the posts.

I had a bit of a nightmare prob lem with a shower room where tiles all fell off due to poor workmanship. Combined effort of cowboy builders and tiler.

My insurance company knew nothing about tanking until I found this website, researched and, mistakingly, told them.
Subsequently they then refused to pay claim. I fought this and got have the cost. still not had work done yet.

I couldn't agree more that all bathrooms and shower areas should have to be tanked to hopefully stop this happening.:furious3:

 

[DHTiling]

Hi all, I'm a neewbie poster here but have gained lots of knowledge trawling through the posts.

I had a bit of a nightmare prob lem with a shower room where tiles all fell off due to poor workmanship. Combined effort of cowboy builders and tiler.

My insurance company knew nothing about tanking until I found this website, researched and, mistakingly, told them.
Subsequently they then refused to pay claim. I fought this and got have the cost. still not had work done yet.

I couldn't agree more that all bathrooms and shower areas should have to be tanked to hopefully stop this happening.:furious3:

It's not a building Regulation to tank...so your insurance company had no right to withhold payment as far as i'm concerned....they will do anything to get out of paying up.....

welcome to the forums and thanks for sharing your unfortunate claim with us..

 

[wetdec]

If everyone including the powers that be in the Inssurance market were to read my previous post they would realise the logic of using tanking membranes and the money to be saved from prevented home damage.

But then again..........maybe there is money to be lost by the inssurance co's through us being more logical in the way we look after our homes :yes:


..

 

[wishy]

Thanks Dave, I think the withholding of money was down to the policy stating "...water escape from pipes" which this certainly was not. More like water ingress to walls, but my point is the insurance companies are totally out of touch with damage prevention as are the general public, as I was.

The first tiler, who came highly recommended, obviously chose not to tank or was oblivious to tanking altogether.

 

[DHTiling]

Thanks Dave, I think the withholding of money was down to the policy stating "...water escape from pipes" which this certainly was not. More like water ingress to walls, but my point is the insurance companies are totally out of touch with damage prevention as are the general public, as I was.

The first tiler, who came highly recommended, obviously chose not to tank or was oblivious to tanking altogether.

Tanking membranes are the way forward.....and for what they cost it is silly not to use them really.....

If you need a fixer to re-tile for you then let us know and we will sort one for you from here...

p.s where abouts are you located..?

 

[oldgit]

Thanks Dave, I think the withholding of money was down to the policy stating "...water escape from pipes" which this certainly was not. More like water ingress to walls, but my point is the insurance companies are totally out of touch with damage prevention as are the general public, as I was.

The first tiler, who came highly recommended, obviously chose not to tank or was oblivious to tanking altogether.

i think you stated the tiling was done via a builder,if thats the case the tiler tiled as he was asked,thats the problem who is it going to be down to,if its a privete job and the tiler asks whether you want it tanked or not, you say no which at present would be 99% of punters,what do you do as a tiler lose the job or do the job.
if its for a builder my opinion is its down to the builder to either tank or pay you to tank it.
take this situation builder builds extension,you tank and tile the new ensuite shower 6 months later the tray has dropped 7mm and the client has a leak in his kitchen and all of a sudden its the tilers problem,whereas its the plumbers problem or the timber frame has shrunk etc etc.
i for one will not give a guarantee for tanking as very rarely is it something the tiler has not done right its a problem with the shower tray moving or not being sealed properly.
i agree something should be done regarding tanking or jointing issues but 999 times out a 100 the problem is the tray so therefore its not for tilers to be sorting it out or taking the responsibility.
if it becomes a tile fixers remit to tank a shower i for one would say no thanks,as the damage could be very expensive and to prove i had done the correct work would be a legal headache and very expensive to another insurance company ie mine,why should i be covered to pay for other tradesmens mistakes.

 

[doug boardley]

If everyone including the powers that be in the Inssurance market were to read my previous post they would realise the logic of using tanking membranes and the money to be saved from prevented home damage.

But then again..........maybe there is money to be lost by the inssurance co's through us being more logical in the way we look after our homes :yes:


..

it would be nice (or naive?) to think that our insurance premiums would come down if we went that extra yard, but I don't think that would happen!

 

[Dan]

Just bumping some of the older popular (sometimes not so popular) threads. Probably wont be current discussion these days but I just need to do it. So just ignore the thread if it's not current for you.