Tiles cracked in new bathroom

[jamesbond]

Hi,
I was hoping I might get some advice with a cracked tiling issue I am experiencing.
We had a new bathroom installed about a year ago, and noticed the other day that half the top two rows of tiles along an interior brick wall are cracked.
We had a closer look around the bathroom, and found that there are also odd tiles cracked all over the bathroom. Some cracked right across, some with just barely visible hairline cracks a few inches long, a couple are blown out, as if hit from behind.

We are somewhat stumped as to the cause of this.
3 of the 4 walls have cracked tiles. All walls are solid brick.
The ceiling was plasterboarded over and skimmed before the tiling was done.
There are Silicon joins in the corners around the bath/shower, but all other corners and joins to ceiling are grouted to the corners.
The tiles are 500mmx250mm from Tile Giant.
We contacted the plumber who oversaw the job, and he is as stumped as we are at the moment. He is going to talk to the tiler, and in the meantime is going try to find out if there have been reported issues with the tile type/batch, and contact the adhesive manufacturer to check for issues and possible reactions (?).
Although I trust he will get to the bottom of the issue, we are a little concerned and hoped to get some 3rd party independent advice from some of you as to what might be the cause.
The only thoughts I have are:
It could be a bad batch of adhesive, or expired adhesive (if that is a thing?).
Possibly some kind of expansion that did not have adequate gaps left?
A mistake made by the tiler?
Some, but not all, of the tiles sound hollow when tapped as if there is a gap or air pocket behind them. Could air pockets left between tiles and adhesive expand with enough pressure to crack tiles?

My final thought is that I have noticed that the tiles that are cracked are all on areas of the walls that were painted, not tiled when the previous bathroom was in. (The tiles only went halfway up the wall and the top half was painted. The paint was typical water resistant, wipable bathroom paint, and was done by previous owner, who generally did not prepare well before painting and so the layer itself may not have been particularly sound itself). Is it possible that if the paint was not removed/prepared/keyed/bonded/stabilised first that it could be coming loose and cause cracking? It would make perfect sense to me if they were falling off, but could this actually cause cracking? If this were the case, should the tiler have not dealt with the paint before tiling, rather than tiling over it?
Again, this is just an observation and could be just a coincidence.

Any thought on this issue would be gratefully appreciated.
Thanks in advance
James

 

[Andy Rhodes]

I agree, but this is a mastic joint were the tiles meet and if the tiles are butt tight to the face of the other walls that are tiled if there's movement the tiles are hitting another surface that has no give so unless there's an visible built in expansion joint actually in the wall , realistically the soft joint is no use.

 

[Dumbo]

I agree, but this is a mastic joint were the tiles meet and if the tiles are butt tight to the face of the other walls that are tiled if there's movement the tiles are hitting another surface that has no give so unless there's an visible built in expansion joint actually in the wall , realistically the soft joint is no use.

He said the corners were grouted. We are both making assumptions you they are butt jointed , me they have a gap but as far as expansion it is a requirement at the corners so wether he hasn't allowed for it because he has butt jointed or that he has filled the corner joint with grout it is an incorrect instalation and lack of movement joint at this point does apply

 

[Andy Rhodes]

Again jcr I agree with what your saying ,I personal think that they need to get in an independent body to give a defining outcome

 

[jobdone]

Tiled on to paint. Adhesive cures and shrinks then the paint bond to the wall breaks and the biscuit of the ceramic tile then can't take the sinking and cracks and bows the tile. This is made worse if the bed depth is thicker.

 

[One Day]

Hang on a minute everyone! The issue here is with cracks in the tiles.
I've seen BCT crack (not craze) irrespective of the fixing method or lack of prep.
Tiles should not be so weak that adhesive causes cracks.
Crazing can be seen in some tiles after ages.
My own glazed ceramics in my kitchen have started to craze, but that's after 12 years.
These are almost certainly tension and compression cracks.

(disclaimer: I have been known to be wrong before now!)

 

[Bathfix Bob]

I've had this before, the tiles were Jazz whites and it was for a regular customer who asked me to run a few courses of tiles round their porch so when the dog came in he wouldn't flick mud up the wallpaper.

It took me months to get round to doing it and when I did I reboarded 9o% of it but one little bit in the corner (4 tiles) on an L shape was old paint that was still stuck after tape test. I decided to just once in my life cut a corner and think ah its only a mud splash so I primed and tiled over the paint with the 4 tiles and guess what?

11 months later exactly the same cracks as the pictures here, right through the biscuit bulged out and blown, the only tiles that were affected were on paint.

My customer said its such a strange thing and its not my fault, I said it is my fault although I've never seen it before. I sorted it for free one evening.

 

[jamesbond]

Thank you all for your input so far.
It has been a great help in at least being able to know what to look for as we start to try to put things right.
I will of course let you know the outcome, should we ever actually get to the bottom of it of course.
Thanks again
Hello,
I finally have an update on this issue, and wanted to update you (it sucks when someone asks for help and you never hear the outcome).

So the bathroom fitter and tiler visited a wekk or two after the last post on this forum, and they too had done a little research on the problem, of course.
They also came to a pretty strong conclusion that it was the tiles that were at fault.
We pointed out that they only seemed to be broken in a few specific areas, which are areas that had formerly been painted, above the midline, and that if it was solely the tiles, would this not have happened much more randomly in all areas?
We ultimately agreed that it is more likely a combination of issues....for example, had there not been paint, the tiles would have maybe not cracked, but the painted surface in addition to likely substandard tiles = cracked tiles.

We came to an agreement that we would hold off doing anything for a few months to see if any further tiles cracked before deciding on a course of action.

As of 2 weeks ago, no further tiles had cracked, and since we didn't actually know who/what was the cause, rather than rip the whole bathroom out to retile (which was in neither of our best interests at this point), we all agreed that they would come round and remove the broken ones and replace them, hopefully maybe getting more of an idea of the cause at the same time as the tiles came off.

I have been really appreciative at the whole way they have dealt with this so far to be honest. They could have easily washed their hands of it and blamed it solely on the tiles, given the reputation of the manufacturer and the fact the company has gone into administration. Which would have left us no choice but to pay huge amounts for an inspection from TTA to get to the bottom of it.
Given that they are sure genuinely sure it is an issue with the tiles (which is a reasonable assumption given that they have used the same tiling practices as all their previous jobs and have never seen this type of cracking before), they agreed to perform the work to replace them anyway.
So we finally reached the day of the work to replace the tiles.

Despite the cracks, the guys did have a hard time getting them off the walls. They definitely did not just fall or peel off or anything like that.

We all, of course, have been keen to see what was happening behind the tiles in the hope that we would get to the bottom of it.

Once they emerged having removed the offending tiles, I asked if they were any the wiser, and it seems they found nothing that made them suspect it was anything more than the tiles as they originally suspected.

I of course was keen to have a look too, and armed with all the advice and suggestions you have all provided in this thread, here is what I noticed:

1. The tiles had indeed been spot fixed. Not spots around the corners, but one or two large blobs in the center of the tiles. There was no adhesive around the edges.

2. The paint from the former bathroom was still on the walls. Although it had been "keyed", it had not been removed, and only small amounts had been removed during the removal of the tiles. Most of it was still there...They have now scraped the remainder off and used "stabiliser" on the walls to make sure that is ruled out.

3. the removed tiled reached down to a median strip of thicker tiles, and although this strip has been totally covered with adhesive, I was able to get a cutter blade all the way down between the adhesive and the wall.

I pointed these things out to the guys, asking if they could possibly be the cause, just to help satisfy our joint curiosities, and hopefully to make sure the same doesn't repeat.

The responses are as follows:

1. Spot Fixing: They said that spot fixing may indeed cause issues on a floor, but that tilers always fix this way on walls, otherwise they can't get a completely flat surface. They said that if they went for 100% coverage, then the adhesive follows any curve in the wall rather than the flat back of the tile, and makes it hard to avoid lippage. They said that although it would be great to get 100% coverage, it just isn't practical in the real world, and that British Standards only requires 80% coverage, which they have achieved.
They said they have used the same methods in hundreds of jobs, and have never had an issue like this before, and pointed out that if they had, and that had been the cause, they would have done it different from then on, of course.
They also pointed out that all the tiles in other areas of the bathroom are not cracked despite the same fixing method being used.

2. Paint: Again they pointed out that there are other areas where there is paint, but no cracked tiles. Also pointed out that if it was the paint, then the tiles would have just fallen off the wall when they came to remove them rather than having to be smashed off. They said they are pretty convinced it is not the paint, though, as mentioned above, they have removed it and used some kind of stabilising chemical on the wall just to be sure.

I was careful not to contradict any of their points, for obvious reasons. I just wanted to point out my observations and hear their oppinions.

They said that they could understand a spot fix possibly being broken by being bashed, but had never had a tile just crack itself. And they also said that even if the paint had caused some areas not to have 100% proper adhesion, they would have still not have expected that to cause cracks in the tiles.

The most confusing of all, was that when the tiles came off around the window, which were also cracked, they DID have 100% coverage. And although there was still paint beneath the adhesive, they did have a job getting the adhesive off.

The points they raised against spot fixing and paint, particularly the fact it had only happened in a specific area, was quite compelling too, and so we are all still unable to make a definitive decision as to the exact cause.

We are still of the opinion that it is a combination of the paint/fixing/tile. If the tiles were totally sound, the other factors wouldn't have been an issue and vice versa.

Ultimately, I'm just stoked that the guys have redone the afected areas, despite not really knowing the cause befoer doing so, and still being none the wiser after.

All we can do, given than no further tiles have cracked since February, is hope this is the end of it. But the adhesive isn't dry yet.....so keep your fingers crossed for us )

Anyway....I just wanted to let you know the outcome, and to take a moment to thank you all again for all your insight and advice on this issue. It has really helped us all to try to understand what happened and to reach an agreement and a solution that we were all happy with.