tiling over floor grade chipboard
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Perry
a grumpy lol how are you mate lol
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GazTech
Hi Graham, to refer to your initial question in June this year, any use of a primer is of little or no consequence, primer has never been used to adhere tiles to chipboard, we already know that the adhesive you have chosen is unsuitable for purpose. Please let us know if they are still down .......Gaz
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sharpfamily
hello gaztech,
:yes: yes the 198 tiles (500*500) are so far looking perfect after two and half months. no signs of cracking, lifting or de-bonding. The BAL SPF was very easy to use - I mixed it accurately in 5 tile batches (1.25sqm) at ratio of 5.4ltrs/20kg bag...slightly drier than bag instructions but easily workable.
I had previously experienced using the 2 part Bal on over warm board with warm-up undertile heating. This was only 3 sq m but I found it very messy & laborious to use...& clean-up.
Using the spf for the much larger 50sq m tiling was by comparison a joy. Also I didn't want to overlay with ply as this would create a step at doors with interface with carpet in other rooms.
So...so far so good....I'll let you know if the tiles are still perfect at the year end. Maybe my situation is different to others, where use of spf on chipboard hasn't been successful.
any queries welcome.
regards,
graham
:yes: yes the 198 tiles (500*500) are so far looking perfect after two and half months. no signs of cracking, lifting or de-bonding. The BAL SPF was very easy to use - I mixed it accurately in 5 tile batches (1.25sqm) at ratio of 5.4ltrs/20kg bag...slightly drier than bag instructions but easily workable.
I had previously experienced using the 2 part Bal on over warm board with warm-up undertile heating. This was only 3 sq m but I found it very messy & laborious to use...& clean-up.
Using the spf for the much larger 50sq m tiling was by comparison a joy. Also I didn't want to overlay with ply as this would create a step at doors with interface with carpet in other rooms.
So...so far so good....I'll let you know if the tiles are still perfect at the year end. Maybe my situation is different to others, where use of spf on chipboard hasn't been successful.
any queries welcome.
regards,
graham
G
grumpygrouter
Glad to hear that your floor is down and you are happy with it. I hope the structure is sufficiently strong for it and it lasts for you.
G
GazTech
Thanks for keeping us updated, best of luck..
A
Alberta Stone
Putting tiles directly onto a single layer of subfloor is never right no matter what you stick it there with.
Add to that it is chipboard (OSB) and you are gambling.
You may luck out and never have a problem,
But it is pure luck with zero logic or common sense involved.
There is a good reason why no adhesive manufacturer will recommend this practice.
Warranty/liability issues.
They have been in the game a long time and know from experience what will work and what will find them in court with a claim against them.
So good luck with the dice chum.
Add to that it is chipboard (OSB) and you are gambling.
You may luck out and never have a problem,
But it is pure luck with zero logic or common sense involved.
There is a good reason why no adhesive manufacturer will recommend this practice.
Warranty/liability issues.
They have been in the game a long time and know from experience what will work and what will find them in court with a claim against them.
So good luck with the dice chum.
S
sharpfamily
thanks for the best wishes.
Can the success of my floor so far all be really down to luck!?
I'll let you know how the floor is looking at Christmas. I'm pretty confident it will be OK. If it is then maybe there's need to review the guidance and practice on tiling on floorgrade chipboard.
regards,
graham
Can the success of my floor so far all be really down to luck!?
I'll let you know how the floor is looking at Christmas. I'm pretty confident it will be OK. If it is then maybe there's need to review the guidance and practice on tiling on floorgrade chipboard.
regards,
graham
G
GazTech
Graham..... Thousands of failures onto chipboard that have been recorded, I doubt British Standard or adhesive manufacturers will be affected by your thus far success....:lol:
glad your floor is still down graham!! it may well stay down with no problems, but working as professional fixers we have to use the tried and tested methods and work within the adhesive manufacturers guidelines , you can appreciate that customers wouldnt be too happy with tiles cracking and lifting...
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sharpfamily
yes fully understand your position as professional tiler.
My tiling was diy so I was lucky to able to take what I judged to be an acceptable risk. The advice from the forum has been very strongly not to use BAL spf on floorgrade chipboard...although for several and different reasons.
This now is purely of academic interest to me - I certainly will let the Forum know how my floor performs over the future.
It may be that the industry is being over cautious and over engineering the job....at extra cost to customers?
best,
graham
My tiling was diy so I was lucky to able to take what I judged to be an acceptable risk. The advice from the forum has been very strongly not to use BAL spf on floorgrade chipboard...although for several and different reasons.
This now is purely of academic interest to me - I certainly will let the Forum know how my floor performs over the future.
It may be that the industry is being over cautious and over engineering the job....at extra cost to customers?
best,
graham
O
Olz
Good Post Andy, Sums things up nicely.
I hope it works out for the OP, but i think as you say Andy, if it goes wrong the fixer who laid it gets the call to put it right, I wouldnt want to spend half a working week going round correcting jobs that i'd taken a chance on.
Different story in your own home as you take the chance and the consequence if it fails.
G
GazTech
We at Bal invested heavily to produce an adhesive to save overboarding chipboard... therefore saving the end user time and money. We continue to strive to make the adhesives and all other products the best in the market. We asvise people which are the best products for their situation, and have been doing this in the industry since production started in 1966. I find your last comment not only very cynical but also a cheap attempt to absolve yourself after ignoring the advice not only of the manufacturer, but also countless professionals who have attemped to stop you from making a mistake that will enevitably cost you money.....:mad2:
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S
Sully
Gaz: I find your last comment not only very cynical but also a cheap attempt to absolve yourself after ignoring the advice
I'd be 100% with you there Gaz - excellent free advice was offered by several of you guys and cynicism seems to be the response. I'm ever grateful for the tech support I receive from BAL and the guarantees that I in turn can pass onto my clients. It'd be very costly if such a floor fails and certainly not worth the risk IMO.
Andrew
I'd be 100% with you there Gaz - excellent free advice was offered by several of you guys and cynicism seems to be the response. I'm ever grateful for the tech support I receive from BAL and the guarantees that I in turn can pass onto my clients. It'd be very costly if such a floor fails and certainly not worth the risk IMO.
Andrew
G
grumpygrouter
just to give an indication of "potential" problems, I have (hopefully) attached a picture of a floor, tiled earlier this year - not by me I may add, I have just redone the whole thing - that was straight on to chipboard with no other preparation. The floor was less than 6 months old!
Attachments
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P
Perry
yes grumpy i have seen this many times in 27 years of tiling unlike Graham i have found i could not afford to gamble with with my or any one elses money 😛ete
M
mick musik
sounds like "no more nails will do"crowd , why ask if your not going to listen
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sharpfamily
I'm replying in the interest of a learning debate on this intiguing topic:
thanks grumpy - your picture is interesting. the main tile in the photo shows cracks which don't extend beyond that tile's perimeter. there are also signs of cracking within another tile; which appear independent to the cracks in the main tile. looks like a localised failure mode on each tile. what do you think caused such localised cracking? was it all down to the chipboard? would usage of bal 2 part superflex (or Ardex?) have prevented this? what did you do to rectify the situation?
it would be useful if any other forum members could also share descriptions of tile failures on chip board.
as i've described earlier, my tiling on green floor grade chip board with bal spf has so far been very successful..... is this really just a lucky one off.... so far.... to be tested by time? and what mechanisms over time may cause cracking?
best,
graham
thanks grumpy - your picture is interesting. the main tile in the photo shows cracks which don't extend beyond that tile's perimeter. there are also signs of cracking within another tile; which appear independent to the cracks in the main tile. looks like a localised failure mode on each tile. what do you think caused such localised cracking? was it all down to the chipboard? would usage of bal 2 part superflex (or Ardex?) have prevented this? what did you do to rectify the situation?
it would be useful if any other forum members could also share descriptions of tile failures on chip board.
as i've described earlier, my tiling on green floor grade chip board with bal spf has so far been very successful..... is this really just a lucky one off.... so far.... to be tested by time? and what mechanisms over time may cause cracking?
best,
graham
W
White Room
I did once this was due to the customer not having the funds and being a reguler client, Did explain and what could happen. It was a conservatory, Had the green stuff and was solid, No movement. Used soverign porcel flex then added sbr just to cover myself, The grout was Bal flexi wide joint grout, Have been back a few times for other work and allways look for cracks in the joints, None so far. I done this job about 2 years ago and still sweat that one day I will get a phone call there's a crack in the grout. Never again, You think your helping them out but the first problem and their on your case
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A
Alberta Stone
I'm from Canada and so the terms are a bit different, for clarity is this waferboard or particleboard or what precisely?
Any of these materials is not recommended by the manufacturer as statistically the product swells and does break down when subjected to moisture of any kind.
There is no professional tile trade in the world which will say that you can install rigid tiles over a single layer of wood of any kind, even plywood.
This is due to movement which the second layer reduces to acceptable tolerances.
In small areas you are most likely to "get away with it".
I hope it stands up for you as it is an investment.
But if a job is worth doing at all, it is worth doing it right.
The reason why the adhesive manufacturers and board makers do not recommend doing these things is that statistically they fail more than they succeed and that turns into lawsuits against installers and manufacturers.
We are all in this industry to produce something of lasting value and to make a profit, not to feed the lawyers.
It is in no way a conspiracy to make people buy more or pay extra.
Any of these materials is not recommended by the manufacturer as statistically the product swells and does break down when subjected to moisture of any kind.
There is no professional tile trade in the world which will say that you can install rigid tiles over a single layer of wood of any kind, even plywood.
This is due to movement which the second layer reduces to acceptable tolerances.
In small areas you are most likely to "get away with it".
I hope it stands up for you as it is an investment.
But if a job is worth doing at all, it is worth doing it right.
The reason why the adhesive manufacturers and board makers do not recommend doing these things is that statistically they fail more than they succeed and that turns into lawsuits against installers and manufacturers.
We are all in this industry to produce something of lasting value and to make a profit, not to feed the lawyers.
It is in no way a conspiracy to make people buy more or pay extra.
B
Branty
Great post Alberta.
It is a form of particle board.
In certain circumstances, we (BAL) say you can tile onto a floating floor. Our adhesive, BAL fastflex, can be used. The responsibility lies with the tile installer to make sure the floor is rigid enough for a tile application. You can't just stick tiles to any floating floor. It has to be the correct wood, fixed correctly, and more importantly, the insulation under it has to be able to take a tile application. Which all to often it does not.
The problem is, is that most of these floors were installed when the house was originally built, those bathroom floors were then carpeted (Ewwwww!). You can bet your bottom dollar, that insulation is not suitable for a tile.
As you said, you 'can' tile onto a floating floor. And our Fastflex is the adhesive to use. But there are so many variables with them, unless you're 100% sure what the floor is constructed of, don't touch them.
It is a form of particle board.
In certain circumstances, we (BAL) say you can tile onto a floating floor. Our adhesive, BAL fastflex, can be used. The responsibility lies with the tile installer to make sure the floor is rigid enough for a tile application. You can't just stick tiles to any floating floor. It has to be the correct wood, fixed correctly, and more importantly, the insulation under it has to be able to take a tile application. Which all to often it does not.
The problem is, is that most of these floors were installed when the house was originally built, those bathroom floors were then carpeted (Ewwwww!). You can bet your bottom dollar, that insulation is not suitable for a tile.
As you said, you 'can' tile onto a floating floor. And our Fastflex is the adhesive to use. But there are so many variables with them, unless you're 100% sure what the floor is constructed of, don't touch them.
B
Branty
Great pic Grumpy.
This is a case of wrong adhesive, but probably wrong insulation.
With unsuitable insulation, over a period of time, with very small deflection (1-2mm). The insulation depresses down, but doesn't revert to original shape. Then what you have is a void between chipboard, and insulation. Leading to cracks, and debonding.
Unfortunately no adhesive can cope with this.
S
sharpfamily
thanks to all for taking the time to share your views and experience.
in return here's my observations:
my chipboard floor is not floating - it is on timber battens (insulation between) onto concrete with damp proof membrane under. I added a lot of extra screws, as Grumpy suggested in an earlier response, to make sure the floor was fully secure and free from measurable deflection.
as it's over 2 months since the tiles were laid, the bal spf must now be totally dry(?) so the green (moisture resistant) flooring grade chipboard has not reacted to the water/moisture in the spf when it was laid.
the original floor construction is over 17 years old so it should have fully adjusted to ambient conditions - any original shrinkage/expansion having already occurred. I carefully inspected the chipboard and found there were no signs of any dampness or any deterioration in the chipboard. It remains to be seen if there are any seasonal variations in ambient conditions that may affect the chipboard - ie hopefully no cracks at christmas! I'll let you know.
finally my apologies to any who took offence at my comment on extra cost to customers. none was intended.
best,
graham
in return here's my observations:
my chipboard floor is not floating - it is on timber battens (insulation between) onto concrete with damp proof membrane under. I added a lot of extra screws, as Grumpy suggested in an earlier response, to make sure the floor was fully secure and free from measurable deflection.
as it's over 2 months since the tiles were laid, the bal spf must now be totally dry(?) so the green (moisture resistant) flooring grade chipboard has not reacted to the water/moisture in the spf when it was laid.
the original floor construction is over 17 years old so it should have fully adjusted to ambient conditions - any original shrinkage/expansion having already occurred. I carefully inspected the chipboard and found there were no signs of any dampness or any deterioration in the chipboard. It remains to be seen if there are any seasonal variations in ambient conditions that may affect the chipboard - ie hopefully no cracks at christmas! I'll let you know.
finally my apologies to any who took offence at my comment on extra cost to customers. none was intended.
best,
graham
G
grumpygrouter
Hi Graham, this was only one of several cracks in the floor in various places. My instructions to the client were to overboard the existing chipboard with 18mm ply screwed at a min of 300mm centres. Further into the refurbishment, after the tiles had been lifted, it was clear that the chipboard had failed in a number of places. The floor was taken up completely ( some considerable plumbing was then done on an opportunity basis) and I saw the bathroom without any floor at all. I mentioned to the client that this is now ideal as he can have 22mm ply laid instead of chipboard to give an excellent surface to tile onto.
Sadly, my instructions were ignored. The "joiner" persuaded him that "it was fine to have chipboard laid as it is stronger than ply. He then proceeded to overboard with 6mm ply ring nailed every 4 inches!!
You can imagine my dismay when when I saw what I was being asked to tile. I initially refused to do the job, but relented as the customer needed his floor finished as he had many guests arriving at the weekend for a family wedding and need the bathroom. I agreed to tile his floor and I did so with BAL Fastflex as suggested to you in my original post. I am no longer able to get Ardex 7001. I charged considerably more for the job than I otherwise would have because of the high cost of the adhesive and extra work involved because it is more difficult to work with.
The ONLY saving grace I can think of from this job is that the new chipboard that was laid was 22mm not 18. I have told my customer I will not warrant the work and that in all probablity it WILL crack. he has accepted this. I have done my best for the customer following his instructions and I have used what is probably the best adhesive available for this type of installation, however I have little faith that the installation will not fail. If it does so I will not waste my time and money redoing it.
In relation to your own tiling work, please bear in mind also that this floor I have tiled is no where near as large as the area you have tiled. My was only 9m2.
A
Alberta Stone
No offense taken Graham.
I hope the floor stays put for you.
The thing is this is a tiling forum and tradesmen who make their living from tiles cannot be recommending methods or protocols which go against the manufacturers and current industry standards.
(unless they have a really good case, which seldom happens)
We are all glad things seem to be going good for you, but if they stay that way it is the exception.
The method you employed is dicey at best.
Sometimes you win, most times you don't.
Would you respect a surgeon who operated by such principles?
I hope the floor stays put for you.
The thing is this is a tiling forum and tradesmen who make their living from tiles cannot be recommending methods or protocols which go against the manufacturers and current industry standards.
(unless they have a really good case, which seldom happens)
We are all glad things seem to be going good for you, but if they stay that way it is the exception.
The method you employed is dicey at best.
Sometimes you win, most times you don't.
Would you respect a surgeon who operated by such principles?
grumpy i doubt very much your job will fail, i recently lifted a kitchen floor that had been down for about 8 years , the tiles were rock solid and not a crack in the grout anywhere, i was very surprised to see that the tiler had overboarded the chipboard with hardboard nailed with ringshanks , ordinary adhesive had been used.. im not recommending this practice but im sure you will be safe enough...
S
sharpfamily
thanks for the christmas greetings em.
just to let you know my tiled floor is still solid & crack free.
The SPF seems to have been totally successful.
So from this experience I would conclude that using simple SPF straight onto green floor grade chipboard can be worth the risk. The recommended alternative BAL 2 part is much more expensive and messier to use; and also expensive ply board overlay is maybe not always needed.
Obviously other circumstances may be different therefore ......caution is needed.
merry christmas .
graham
just to let you know my tiled floor is still solid & crack free.
The SPF seems to have been totally successful.
So from this experience I would conclude that using simple SPF straight onto green floor grade chipboard can be worth the risk. The recommended alternative BAL 2 part is much more expensive and messier to use; and also expensive ply board overlay is maybe not always needed.
Obviously other circumstances may be different therefore ......caution is needed.
merry christmas .
graham
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grumpygrouter
Thanks for the update Graham. Your floor is still quite new but here's hoping it stays solid and crack free for you.
2
225driver
:beatdeadhorse5:
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sharpfamily
not sure what value the the last 2 responses add to a learning discussion.
surely reporting a success of SPF on chipboard is of interest, even to those who only use expensive 2 part adhesive and plywood overlay......in all situations?
has no one else had success with SPF on chipboard?
surely reporting a success of SPF on chipboard is of interest, even to those who only use expensive 2 part adhesive and plywood overlay......in all situations?
has no one else had success with SPF on chipboard?
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