Tiling Standards

[Rich]

Min of 15mm BWP ply and then 6mm cement board, really not worth messing about with. Also might need to add some extra noggins before the ply goes down. Seal the underside and edges of the ply, leave a 2-3mm joint between the boards (that should be staggered) and screw down about every 200mm centers. The cement boards will need sticking down with either tile adhesive or glue, depending on the brand of boards, and then screwed down. Then you should be good to rock and roll

 

[Carpello]

Just had a chat with a rep from a tile shop and he says.......'no need to glue/adhesive Hardi Backer down, but 200-300mm centres a must'

It seems within this industry, from top to bottom, everyone has good advice which often conflicts with others good, advice.

Im certainly not looking to cut corners in anyway but is with 200mm centre screws into the Backer board is there any need for glue/adhesive??

 

[Carpello]

I phoned a popular tile shop who stock Hardi, so im guessing he is not that experienced in actually using the materials he is selling.
And by 'voids in the board' do you mean between the backer board and ply below....?

 

[Rich]

Yeah, you dont want any voids between the cement boards and the ply below, these can cause the tiles to crack and lift.
Most staff (not all) get plenty of training in how to sell products but very few of them have ever used them. This isnt an opinion thing, this is the manufacturers installation instructions. Iv seen a lot of trades and customers lay these boards and just screw them down because they havnt looked into how to lay them and it usually ends in tears.

 

[Carpello]

Brilliant advice, thank you. Just need to gather as much info as possible as this will add time to the job which will need to be explained correctly to the customer. I would rather take a bit longer knowing i am in line with manufacturers installation instructions etc.
So, just re capping (excuse my ignorance!) if i lift the existing tiles and board with it this will more than likely leave me with exposed joists?? I then put down a marine plywood 15mm min thickness (screwed into joists) then tile adhesive with 6mm Backer board on top..........???

 

[Carpello]

Nice one!! This may explain a few things......the house is 15yrs old, so fairly modern. The existing grout is starting to crack which is what set the alarm bells ringing when pricing up the job.
I have also heard of other people in the area with similar problems in upstairs bathrooms. Im now thinking when they built the house they prob just tiled directly onto plywood of some sort and now experiencing similar problems which your thread relates to.
That thread is spot on and will now give me confidence to explain to customers on why my quotes include extra time to prepare the floor and confidence when i walk away knowing i have done everything correctly.
Once again....that thread is quality.
Thanks for your time

 

[Rich]

Nice one!! This may explain a few things......the house is 15yrs old, so fairly modern. The existing grout is starting to crack which is what set the alarm bells ringing when pricing up the job.
I have also heard of other people in the area with similar problems in upstairs bathrooms. Im now thinking when they built the house they prob just tiled directly onto plywood of some sort and now experiencing similar problems which your thread relates to.
That thread is spot on and will now give me confidence to explain to customers on why my quotes include extra time to prepare the floor and confidence when i walk away knowing i have done everything correctly.
Once again....that thread is quality.
Thanks for your time

I will put money on it being chipboard, see it all the time. Builders dont like to pay for ply and just get the tiler to tile straight onto chipboard because its cheap and then the floor fails :mad2:


Really glad that we have helped, thats what the site is for

 

[The Legend; Phil Hobson RIP]

I agree with Rich on this spot on advice. I recently ripped up 3 bathroom floors in the same house. The builder had told the customer he had installed a special backer-board, imported from the US. When I lifted the first tile ( using a scraper, and very little force) low and behold, what do I find? chipboard,:mad2:

 

[Rich]

Makes my blood boil Phil, dont know how these people get away with it :mad2:

 

[The D]

Broken Link Removed * *

in my humble opinion it is better to have a belt and braces than have your pants puled down. *

 

[Rich]

Broken Link Removed * *

in my humble opinion it is better to have a belt and braces than have your pants puled down. *

:lol: I like that.

 

[kopthis]

does the british standard allow tolerances in regard to tile lippage I have laid tiles on the wall, customer was shown tiles were of poor quality and had a bow in them but insisted that I proceed to lay them with 2mm spacers now is crying foul thanks

 

[kopthis]

no just on top of each other would not normally lay them but customer insisted as she wanted the job doing asap

 

[Alan.P]

What size tile ?

 

[DHTiling]

So did the bowing of the tiles not all go same direction.?

 

[kopthis]

tile size 600 x 400, you would think they would bow in the same direction but did not want say were theywere bought from but is 2 letters the second being q so is there any allowance in the standards just so i can throw it at the woman and send her on her way

 

[Time's Ran Out]

Difficult one this!
I've got photos of a job we did with handmade Fired Earth tiles last year and they were all shapes and sizes. Having used similar over the years I could see the effect they were going to have and the style that the customer was looking for.
However if a tile is not meant to be 'aesthetic' and you feel they lack the quality to complete an acceptable job than the onus is on you to make a decision prior to fixing the material - as that is when the manufacturer passes the responsibility to the fixer.
I'am sure that lippage (often highlighted by downlighters) has a standard of acceptance, but if the customer is bringing this to your attention then, unless there is a hidden agenda, you will need to rectify the problem tiles - at your own expense.

 

[One Day]

Answer from BS5385 Pt1 2009:

"7.1.9.2 Across joints
There should be no appreciable difference in level across joints
(commonly called “lipping”) and the maximum deviation between
tile surfaces either side of a joint, including movement joints, should
be as follows.
a) Joints less than 6 mm wide, 1 mm.
b) Joints 6 mm or more wide, 2 mm."

Remember though, BS is a guide, not a target.
No good getting nicked driving dangerously past a school at 8:55am and arguing the speed limit is 30mph!

 

[One Day]

This too:

"7.1.9.1 Finished tile surfaces
The surface should be true such that, when checked with a 2 m
straightedge with 3 mm thick feet at each end, the straightedge
should not be obstructed by the tiles and no gap should be greater
than 6 mm."

"There are permissible manufacturing tolerances for ceramic tiles
defined in BS EN 14411; certain types of tiles, e.g. extruded or large
format, might have permissible surface flatness irregularities that
cannot satisfactorily be accommodated within the surface flatness
tolerance permitted to the tile installer; this should be taken into
account when evaluating the achievable flatness of a wall floor tiling
installation."

 

[One Day]

I know where you're coming from kopthis, I've been there before. But I think you're wrong to say "does BS allow tollerances for lippage".

Ultimately, if you knew the tiles were so poor as to make a decent finish impossible, then you shouldn't really have agreed to brick bond.
Third bond perhaps.
As I say, I've been there and it's a tough call. Do you lose the job by sticking to your standards, knowing that someone else will do it and be paid?

If I were you, show the customer the first part of the BS extract and ask them to put themselves in your shoes.
You explained the problems with the tiles so they MUST bear some of the blame for the result.
You can only polish a turd so much before it all breaks up in your hands!

 

[hillhead]

I tiled a bathroom early last week and was meant to brick it, every tile bowed so i said no.
I tiled it 600 wide, 300 high in straight lines with a nice border too and no probs.
Your tiles must have been damn bad !
Any pics?

 

[One Day]

Ever noticed how porcelanosa insist from a design point of view that their wall tiles are fixed straight?
And by and large they are pretty damn perfect.

I've seen a touch of bowing on the long floor planks and then they ask that they are only ever 1/4 or 1/3 bond.

I always try and convince my customers that brick bond is "so last year darling!"

 

[Stef]

think someone from that big DIY place should start looking at some of the tiles they are selling, i have been shocked at some of the tiles we have been asked to fix. we tell people if you get tiles from there then our price will be more expensive. Its a tough call this 1, states on the boxes that its the fixers responsibility to check tiles before fixing, good luck hope it works out in your favour.

 

[One Day]

The surprising thing is though, that the tiles sold by the DIY sheds are well withing permissable tolerances to qualify for the EN and BS ratings.
The tolerances are crazy.

 

[Stef]

Impish i never knew porcelanosa insisted that about their tiles, porcalenosa are almost always bang on, the biggest we have fixed was a 1000 x 316 ceramic wall tile, cant remember the tile name, we fixed them straight bond but they could have been fixed brick bond easily.

 

[One Day]

Aye Robson, that's my point!
Their tiles are the best and most accurate I work with and they insist that they are fixed straight.
They look better for it too.

 

[Stef]

yeah i will agree with you on that one. Porcelanosa for me. i went right off brick bond start of this year as thats all we seemed to do for about 3 or 4 years. we have used a tile from china, cant remember the name, came from (guangdong province) & they were perfect. 600x300's think they were from tile giant, when i saw them i thought they were going to be crap.

 

[One Day]

Yup, I've worked with some large format rectified chinese ceramics, white bodies. I think they were made by Winter-something-or-other.
In any case, they were bang on. Managed to wet cut a millimeter sliver all the way down the length!

 

[Spud]

when using bowed tiles the convention is to measure the bow in the tile and add this to your standard joint width so if the bow is 1,5mm then you add this to the spacing size, but I couldnt imagine fitting wall tiles with such large joints, lets face it some tiles are not fit for purpose and years ago they would be classed as "seconds"

 

[Mike]

Yup, I've worked with some large format rectified chinese ceramics, white bodies. I think they were made by Winter-something-or-other.
In any case, they were bang on. Managed to wet cut a millimeter sliver all the way down the length!

i used the same ones i think, winto they were called, around 600 by 400. nice tiles to cut and fit.