Important Changes to Tiling Standards

[Dan]

Access British Standards For Wall And Floor Tiling (bs 5385) For Free


Access British standards for free at the library in the thread above.

 

[Marvo]

Great to see the British Standards info is at least available for viewing for free at some public libraries still.

 

[Dan]

Yeah, and anybody can access them no matter where we live in the country. Not sure if there are library fees involved in general but it seems a fair deal considering they're a couple of hundred quid a pop.

 

[Marvo]

Do you need to actually go to the libraries or can they let you log into their intranet so you can view them on-line?

 

[Dan]

The link I provided is for Newcastle Upon Tyne library who allow anybody to register, they don't have to be a resident of the city. You then view them online but no print feature is available.

 

[Tile Shop]

Tiling to Floating Floors

I have seen various threads on here on this subject. Some of you say tile it, some of you say don't.

I've been speaking to various companies today, and after a little cutting and pasting, this is what I've got.

One of the key things I will ask of customers from now on, is to measure the amount of deflection there is in a floor before starting, but take from this what you will.

I guess alot of you will know this already, but for those of you who don't, I recommend printing this off and taking the to the bathroom for when you find the opportunity for a spot of light reading. Hope it helps
Tiling to Floating Floors


FLOATING FLOORS

Tiling onto a floor of this type carries an element of risk as the floor should remain as rigid as possible when loaded therefore it is difficult to provide an adhesive and grout recommendation based on the current floor build. They can be exposed to excessive movement due to the assembly but when adding layers of undertile heating the issues can be exacerbated.


The information below represents the minimum requirement for a floating floor application and is as recommended by British Standards and found in the current codes of practice in The Tile Association Document - Tiling to Sheets and Boards below:


4.2.2.2 Floating Floors


• Direct fixing of rigid flooring such as ceramic tiles to floating timber floors entails an element of risk and where practicable, should be avoided by the use of a proprietary intermediate substrate.


• Ceramic floor tiles should never be installed on floating timber floors subject to heavy static, dynamic loadings.


• In areas of light foot trafficking, where this method of construction is most frequently used, precautions need to be taken to avoid tile or grout cracking and/or loss of adhesion.


• Where the floating floor is laid over a concrete sub-floor the concrete must have an even finish with no localised raised areas (fins, ridges) as these may cause uneven compression of the overlaying resilient insulating layer.


• The insulation layer should be of sufficient density to provide firm support to the overlaying timber boards, with minimum deflection under static and dynamic loads, expanded polystyrene foam is not a suitable underlayment for a floating floor which is to receive ceramic tiling.


• Any tongue and groove joints of boards must be fully located and bonded with a high quality wood adhesive.


• Where boards have to be cut, any butt joints must be supported from beneath with a nogging.


• Where a batten or timber bearer system is used the boards should be screwed to the supports at 300mm centres.


• Apply a proprietary intermediate substrate system designed specifically for use on floating timber sub-floors.

Tiling to Floating Floors
The guidance for timber floors in BS 5385: Part 3: 2014 outlines in clause 6.3.4.3 that there is an need for the floor to be able to carry the additional dead load of up to 0.8 kN/m², and the probable dynamic loading, without excessive movement or deflection. In terms of vertical deflection, additional guidance is also offered in the above standard also recommends that; “The floor should have minimal vertical deflection under load, typically for ceramic tiles, the floor should not deflect any more than 1/360 of the span of the structure or for natural stone tiles this is typically 1/720 of the span in the case of most natural stone”. (BS 5385art 3: 2014 clause 6.3.4.4 floating floors). Alternatively for additional rigidity and the best chance of success, two layers of plywood may be used with each layer being a minimum of 12mm thick and laid so that the joints on both layers do not coincide (cross bonded).


One solution would be to overboard the existing plywood, with a suitable cement based backer board of the recommended thickness from the manufacturer. These boards would be cross bonded and secured using screw fixings to ensure rigidity.

Once a suitable floor substrate is achieved then consideration can be given to use of an uncoupling matting i.e. Ditra, Durabase or BAL Rapid Mat.

Alternatively BAL Single Part Fastflex can be used to fix the tiles directly to the substrate.


Whichever of the two options are selected the a additional flexible additive will be required with a singlepart flexible grout.


Additional movement joints may also be required to help alleviate the likelihood of excessive movement observed within these types of floors.

 

[Dan]

I have seen various threads on here on this subject. Some of you say tile it, some of you say don't.

I've been speaking to various companies today, and after a little cutting and pasting, this is what I've got.

One of the key things I will ask of customers from now on, is to measure the amount of deflection there is in a floor before starting, but take from this what you will.

I guess alot of you will know this already, but for those of you who don't, I recommend printing this off and taking the to the bathroom for when you find the opportunity for a spot of light reading. Hope it helps

FLOATING FLOORS

Tiling onto a floor of this type carries an element of risk as the floor should remain as rigid as possible when loaded therefore it is difficult to provide an adhesive and grout recommendation based on the current floor build. They can be exposed to excessive movement due to the assembly but when adding layers of undertile heating the issues can be exacerbated.


The information below represents the minimum requirement for a floating floor application and is as recommended by British Standards and found in the current codes of practice in The Tile Association Document - Tiling to Sheets and Boards below:


4.2.2.2 Floating Floors


• Direct fixing of rigid flooring such as ceramic tiles to floating timber floors entails an element of risk and where practicable, should be avoided by the use of a proprietary intermediate substrate.


• Ceramic floor tiles should never be installed on floating timber floors subject to heavy static, dynamic loadings.


• In areas of light foot trafficking, where this method of construction is most frequently used, precautions need to be taken to avoid tile or grout cracking and/or loss of adhesion.


• Where the floating floor is laid over a concrete sub-floor the concrete must have an even finish with no localised raised areas (fins, ridges) as these may cause uneven compression of the overlaying resilient insulating layer.


• The insulation layer should be of sufficient density to provide firm support to the overlaying timber boards, with minimum deflection under static and dynamic loads, expanded polystyrene foam is not a suitable underlayment for a floating floor which is to receive ceramic tiling.


• Any tongue and groove joints of boards must be fully located and bonded with a high quality wood adhesive.


• Where boards have to be cut, any butt joints must be supported from beneath with a nogging.


• Where a batten or timber bearer system is used the boards should be screwed to the supports at 300mm centres.


• Apply a proprietary intermediate substrate system designed specifically for use on floating timber sub-floors.


The guidance for timber floors in BS 5385: Part 3: 2014 outlines in clause 6.3.4.3 that there is an need for the floor to be able to carry the additional dead load of up to 0.8 kN/m², and the probable dynamic loading, without excessive movement or deflection. In terms of vertical deflection, additional guidance is also offered in the above standard also recommends that; “The floor should have minimal vertical deflection under load, typically for ceramic tiles, the floor should not deflect any more than 1/360 of the span of the structure or for natural stone tiles this is typically 1/720 of the span in the case of most natural stone”. (BS 5385art 3: 2014 clause 6.3.4.4 floating floors). Alternatively for additional rigidity and the best chance of success, two layers of plywood may be used with each layer being a minimum of 12mm thick and laid so that the joints on both layers do not coincide (cross bonded).


One solution would be to overboard the existing plywood, with a suitable cement based backer board of the recommended thickness from the manufacturer. These boards would be cross bonded and secured using screw fixings to ensure rigidity.

Once a suitable floor substrate is achieved then consideration can be given to use of an uncoupling matting i.e. Ditra, Durabase or BAL Rapid Mat.

Alternatively BAL Single Part Fastflex can be used to fix the tiles directly to the substrate.


Whichever of the two options are selected the a additional flexible additive will be required with a singlepart flexible grout.


Additional movement joints may also be required to help alleviate the likelihood of excessive movement observed within these types of floors.

I've edited the thread title so it helps people find it. A good thread and one that will save a lot of money for a lot of people.

Personally I've seen that many threads on failing floating floors I think I'd just not risk it and recommend they use laminate flooring or something instead.

 

[Tile Shop]

Setting this up to test would be a pain. Would be tempting to ask someone to give it a try, but i appreciate that you can't use a customer as a lab rat. It would always need to be done at the "customers own risk". But then how can i tiler guarentee his work? If anything happens to pop, crack or knacker, straight away its the tiler thats gonna get it in the......

But then again, if anyone has had success at this, i'd like to hear tips on how it was done for future reference.

 

[Dan]

Can't remember who it was who did a floating floor a few weeks back. They said how they managed to do it. But it didn't have deflection from memory.

 

[Sean Kelly]

Hows this for a floating floor.

From the bottom to the top.
Conservatory with concrete base.
25mm insulation bonded to 18mm chipboard.
Electric UFH film (designed for laminate or wood floor).
Vapour barrier.
9mm ply screwed down through all the above and into the concrete.

Lady pleaded with me to tile it with 80x80 porc tiles.

There was deflection and I told the woman if she wanted ceramic/porc tiles then do not go ahead with the above installation. She went ahead and now can't find anyone to tile it. That was 2 weeks ago..................it's probably tiled by now!!!!!!! but not by a tiler!

 

[widler]

I've tiled a floater , big kitchen, about 40m2, by the time I'd fixed it to the concrete substrate and stuck hardi on it, was solid as a rock

 

[Old Mod]

Setting this up to test would be a pain. Would be tempting to ask someone to give it a try, but i appreciate that you can't use a customer as a lab rat. It would always need to be done at the "customers own risk". But then how can i tiler guarentee his work? If anything happens to pop, crack or knacker, straight away its the tiler thats gonna get it in the......

But then again, if anyone has had success at this, i'd like to hear tips on how it was done for future reference.

Can't remember who it was who did a floating floor a few weeks back. They said how they managed to do it. But it didn't have deflection from memory.

Oh bugger! Thought I'd posted this at 3 o'clock! Haha

@AliGage, it's his JOTM entry this month!

 

[Rizzle from the Portizzle]

ok for the simple among us what do you mean by floating floor. ie chip board on joist? floors at sea ?floors on the ceiling ?

 

[Rizzle from the Portizzle]

Hows this for a floating floor.

From the bottom to the top.
Conservatory with concrete base.
25mm insulation bonded to 18mm chipboard.
Electric UFH film (designed for laminate or wood floor).
Vapour barrier.
9mm ply screwed down through all the above and into the concrete.

Lady pleaded with me to tile it with 80x80 porc tiles.

There was deflection and I told the woman if she wanted ceramic/porc tiles then do not go ahead with the above installation. She went ahead and now can't find anyone to tile it. That was 2 weeks ago..................it's probably tiled by now!!!!!!! but not by a tiler!

ok you point out all the mistakes .what was your recomendaions to put it right

 

[AliGage]

Can't remember who it was who did a floating floor a few weeks back. They said how they managed to do it. But it didn't have deflection from memory.

Yep it was me. Entered into June's JOTM.

August 2015 jotm

@Ray TT @ Porcel-Thin - Rough concrete Base, with 100mm insulation, over laid with 22mm green chipboard T&G. That Was how mine was made up. No glue, no fixings.

That is the same job I mentioned in another thread @Dan where B&Q had pooped up the very expensive kitchen install.
It's been down about two months now and still all good. I was there Today dropping gear off. New fitters were there literally ripping out the kitchen.
That's my fun job for this week. Filling in the blanks so they can install the kitchen on top and at the correct height!