Travertine walls tiles: Advice for DIYer

[Gazz]

Gazz, there should be an expansion gap at the bottom, the tiles don't sit on the floor. I can see what you are saying though, and watch this thread with interest.

Beanz

Thanks for this: why is there a requirement for an expansion gap at the bottom? Presumably this is for the tiles not the substrate.

What is the recommended gap if I were tiling from the floor up two tiles (450mm each). Would a gap be required?

Again I don't understand the logic behind this. Could you not close the expansion gap with flexible grout, effectively offering the tiles support from the floor upwards as per my argument above. You might argue, "but if you grout you lose the expension gap". My counter to this would be what happens to "internal" tiles which need to expand, for example the middle tile of a block of 9 tiles arranged 3X3. The only expansion that this tile would be allowed would be via the grout which surrounds it on all four sides.

Even if no expansion gap was left at all on the bottom tile, the tile would be surrounded by grout on three sides, allowing 75% of the expansion of the centre tile in the example above.

I realise that you guys will have practical experience on your side and will no doubt get sick of newbies questioning everything, but I am trying to gain an understanding.

Thanks for your patience.:mad2:

Gazz

 

[beanz]

The expansion gap is there to allow for expansion/contraction of the substrate. You'd usually use silicon on the gap, although i have seen flexible grout used. I haven't got the figures, but flexible grout only allows for the tiniest movement really. That said, i've been told by a site tiler, and a Mastic Man, that they grout behind the silicon, as it gives a much neater finish. To my mind, there's very little point leaving an expansion gap, filling with grout, then applying silicon just so it LOOKS like there's a proper expansion gap!?!

I understand what you are saying about the tiles in a block of 9 etc, but it doesn't work like that... The wall and the floor are different materials so will expand/contract at different rates. It's at these joints that there will be the greatest movement, and there's a chance that your tiles will be pushed off the wall. That's not to say that they definitely WILL be pushed off the wall, just that there is more than an acceptable chance. At the end of the day, you won't be suing yourself, so the option is yours hehe!

 

[DHTiling]

Hi gazz...some good advice from the members above.....

You can also just attach 6mm hardi straight to the wall without using battens you know...

Here is a pdf for doing just that...

HardieBacker EN installation 200810 masonry walls.pdf

if you did the whole wall then you can skim the top half to decorate.

 

[grumpygrouter]

Grumpy

Thanks for this. I realise that you are quoting the recommended stresses but do wonder what these are based on (curiousity, not trying to be a clever arse).

Surely the wall overall area, tiled area and tile location must also be considered.

For example, take a plastered wall say 10m by 10 m and travertine weighing 30kg per square metre. There would surely be a vast difference in the forces exerted on the plaster if for example you tiled the full 10 x 10 sq metres, as opposed to, say, tiling an area of that wall 10cm by 10cm. The 10 cm square would be the same weight per square metre, but the total force on the wall (plaster "sheet") would be only 0.3Kg, compared withthe total force exerted on the fully tiled 10m by 10 m wall of 3000Kg.

Equally if the same wall was tiled for the top 5 linear metres only, there would be an unsupported force of 1500Kg. However if the wall was tiled from the bottom up for the first 5 metres, the tiles would have the same weight, but as you are starting from the floor, and assuming that the gravititational pull is downward, there is surely an element of support from the floor boards which in turn sit on the joists.

This is why I was questioning the safety of half tiling (about 900 cm floor upwards) on the plastered wall (I will be using a backer board when I tile the full wall).

Please don't take this the wrong way, I'm not some sort of physicist, nor am I trying to be a clever arse: just trying to understand the logic behind the quoted figures.

Many thanks to you and Beanz for your replies.

Gazz

Hi Gazz, not sure about the physics either but the max weight capability is from the plaster and plasterboard manufacturers themselves, and is incorporated into BS guidelines for tiling. There may well be no problem at all by overloading the substrate, all I am saying is that it is not a practise that can be condoned by this forum. As part of the forum "mangement" if you like, it would put us in a potentially difficult situation if we said "yes it will be fine" and then your wall falls down.

Views of individual members are not necessarily the views of Tilersfirums.co.uk and we can not be held responsible for their "advice". it is only advice after all and you are free to chose and act upon anyones advice as you seem fit.

Hope you understand my point.

 

[smurf21]

Basically the lads are saying we dont know the whys and wherefores of the rec tile weights to substrate ratios they are the guidlines that we have to follow as proffesional tilers as stipulated by board and tile and addy manufacturers if we dont follow them and worse case scenarios happen then all product guarantees are void, so we follow them no point questioning them unless its really important to know why. We then pass on this info free of charge to all who ask whether you follow said advice or not is completly up to the individual poster,whether or not you agree with the info given it is the correct info to which we as pros adhere to.
It may seem sometimes when we spout out a lot of technical info that we dont really know wot we are talking about, but it only seems that way.

 

[Gazz]

Dave,Beanz,Grumpy & Smurf 21

Appreciate your points, well made. I note that you are complying with manufacturers guidlines & British Standards etc with regard to weight loads etc & I like yourselves, do not want to experience either myself or any member of my family sitting in the bath with a lump of travertine falling on their head.

I've actually bought the hardibacker for the main wall (1.8 metres wide X2 metres bath to ceiling: external brick wall, plastered). I've bought 2X1.5" wood lats which I'm fixing at 10" centres to the wall using 3" size 10 screws & appropriate wall plugs (wickes high performance). I'll screw the backerboard to this with 40mm aquapanel fixings (couldn't get hold of the hardibacker screws but was assured that the aquapanel ones would do the trick).

1. Will this set up be adequate for the full height wall?

I,m going to use Mapei cement based white adhesive to fix.

2. Can I be confident that the adhesive WILL hold the travertine immediately and for years to come: what is the load ratio of modern adhesives ie Kg per square metre, preumably greater than the load max of backerboard?

Even using the backerboard I am still a little wary about tiling the full wall (paranoid about a tile falling off even several years down the line. Am I right to be worried?

With regard to the half tiled walls. I'll be tiling two tiles high (36") maximum plus a border. I guess when I was questioning the loads, expansion gaps etc, the point I was trying to make was that the guidelines do not seem to consider the total area to be tiled. For example I can undersatand that to tile a 10m X 10m area with no expansion gap would be follish, but maybe it would be less of an issue tiling a 36" high area.

I'm going to strip the plaster up to 36" on these walls and fit plasterboard.

I really appreciate the advice you guys have given. It quickly became obvious from several of the tile shops which I visited, that the individuals dishing out the information had never laid a travertine tile in their life. One in particular, when questioned about the loads and when I described my walls simply stated I would have no problems and that a 1930's semi wall set up would be much stronger than the plasterboard wall of the new builds, just go ahead and do it, loads of people have done this: pity help them.

For info I ended up getting my tiles at Costco: they've got a turkish travertine, very pale in colour, but look to be very good quality (from my limited experience). They come in packs of 4, 18" X 18" at about £18.00 per sq yd.

Again sincere thanks for all the advice given: I'll no doubt have further questions as the job goes on.

Gazz

 

[TheWrightTiler]

Tile and Adhesive Weight Per Square Metre

Weight per sq metre (Kg) for 3mm thin bed solid bed adhesive application
Weight per sq metre (Kg) for 6mm thick bed solid bed adhesive application
6mm thick glazed tile
14.26 Kg/m2
18.46 Kg/m2
8mm thick glazed tile
17.62 Kg/m2
21.82 Kg/m2
10mm thick glazed tile
20.97 Kg/m2
25.17 Kg/m2
12mm thick glazed tile
24.32 Kg/m2
28.52 Kg/m2
12mm thick quarry
26.40 Kg/m2
30.06 Kg/m2
10mm thick porcelain
23.88 Kg/m2
28.09 Kg/m2
12mm thick porcelain
27.82 Kg/m2
32.00 Kg/m2
10mm thick natural stone
31.10 Kg/m2
35.30 Kg/m2
12mm thick natural stone
36.48 Kg/m2
40.68 Kg/m2
20mm thick natural stone
58.00 Kg/m2
62.20 Kg/m2​

Tiles of over 8mm thick should not be fixed to plaster (maximum permitted weight is 20Kg/m2), however all the tiles above could be fixed to Marmox tile backer board.
Maximum Permitted Weights

These are maximum permitted weights per m2 of tiles and adhesive combined:

Plaster 20kg/m2
Plasterboard 32kg/m2
Render 40kg/m2
Marmox Tile Backer Board 62kg/m2

Note: this information is for guidance only and can vary depending on the type of adhesive and density of the tile being used. Always check before fixing as no liability will be accepted. Cement based adhesives have a mass of approximately 1.4Kg per mm thickness. Porous body glazed tiles have a mass of approximately 1677Kg/m3, quarry tiles 1850Kg/m3, Porcelain 1968Kg/m3 and natural stone 2690Kg/m3.

hope this helps

andy

 

[Gazz]

Back again

My bathroom is almost finished now & I'd firstly like to thank all who responded to my questions and indeed anyone on this site whose posts I read and learned from.

The travertine looks the biz: it was daunting to start with: As it was a one off I didn't want (need ) to spend an awful lot of money on very expensive kit, so I made do with existing tools/lower priced items which I knew would only last for so long and may have been restrictive (probably made things a little more difficult for myself in the long run, but got there nonetheless.

Having said that, I took advice re backerboard on the main wall where I was tiling full height. Fixed to battens which were in turn held by 4" screw & plugs. I was swinging from them trying to pull them off the wall: didnt budge!

I also took advice from various threads and chose Mapei rapid set white flexi adhesive and Mapei Jasmine grout.

Other things I've learned which may be useful to other Travertine "virgins".

1. Mapei rapid set isn't that rapid at setting. I was worried when I bought it that I was going to be rushing like hell to fit a couple of tiles before my bucket went hard.

2. Mapei grout: Be patient when you add water: This stuff looks as though it isn't mixing then suddenly seems to paste up, by which time you've added far too much water.

3. Drilling travertine for screwing fixings etc: Standard tile drill bits work fine for a one off job, but be warned they will break, so be prepared to use a few (very cheap option though).

4. Need to drill a larger hole to accomodate a cistern flush rod (built a travertine covered unit to house built in cistern and half inset sink). The hole required was about 3/4", but I had the luxury of a cover plate of about 1 & 1/4". Would have loved to have bought diamond hole saw, but skint. So I marked out the circle, drilled about eight holes around the circumference and then used a standard hole saw to take out what was left. This left small chip marks around the edge, but as I had to fit the cover plate these were not seen. Did the job.

5. I bought a small diamond wheel flat bed cutter from B & Q for about £20. This was perfectly adequate for the job. The only annoying thing was that the guide restricted cuts to about 7". My tiles were 18" so I had to "reverse cut" quite a few, and sometimes had to make two cuts to get the piece I wanted.

6. I wasn't sure what to use as a top for my unit which housed the toilet, cistern and inset sink. I toyed with a piece of worktop, or using travertine with a butt joint. In the end I found that I could use a standard router (expect to knacker the bits) to put a nice kind of bullnose onto each tile. I left the tops overhanging by about 1cm and the finished look is spot on.

Travertine tiling is not for the feint hearted. It takes time, but the results look way better than standrad ceramics.

Again thankd to who have advised.

Gazz

 

[DHTiling]

Any pics gazz..?..:smilewinkgrin: