underfloor heating - tile moving dilemma

[gubbins]

It may be a part of the problem and might be worth taking note of ,Lack of expansion joints on a large floor with heating can cause failure . With lack of good prep work and priming. Leaves a lot of room for failure . please keep us updated on this one thanks

jay

Oh I have the feeling given the cost of remedying the problem this one is going to run and run so I will do, thanks Jay

 

[Ajax123]

Hi gubbins.

This may be nothing whatever to do with the heating even thouh technically it hould b switched off, there are different schools of thought ref this. One is that the screed shold be unheated. The problem with this is that th screed will naturally expand anc contrct with ambient changes. The counter argument is that if the s creed is heated to a constant temperature of about 20 degrees c during tling this is not only the optimum temp for tile aheives and primers it also holds the screed at a constant temp therefor expansion and contraction is eliminated.

Now then. Question for you....with what was the screed primed and how was this applied

 

[Daz]

Not visible to me within the tiling Jay. although the same materials, tiler and UFH have been used in rooms of much smaller size/ ie <2m - <3 m in length / breadth and one of those rooms already has a tile that very occasionally makes a very slight sound when walked on.

What sort of noise is it?
I may be way off track here, but I do have that niggling feeling that a decoupling mat has been used &, unfortunately, failed.

Daz

 

[Time's Ran Out]

I'am of the view it's a dusty surface and they are all loose.
No preparation of an anhydrite screed, UFH left on when tiled and floor adhesive dried too fast.

 

[tommyzooom]

I'm not a plumber, but re the heating controls, In my opinion, the way yours was controlled is the way I would do it, The mixing stat set to minimum, won't allow water higher than (for an example)10 degrees past this point into your floors,
Room stats are little more than an On/Off switch, setting these at 27 degrees will mean that , as the floor/room will probably never reach this temp, they will remain open and "calling" for heat all the time. You could then raise the temp gradually at the mixer stat.

However the heating should remain off during tiling and grouting, and remain off for up to 14 days after completion of grouting,

 

[Gazzer]

Do you have any areas that have actually been taken up, A photo of the area and the back of a tile may help this problem get sorted. I am thinking that the laitance may not have been removed. We really need to know what materials were used and procedures were taken.

 

[gubbins]

tommy - do you mean UFH left off during the individual procedures of tiling and grouting, , , as it was done?

timeless john- as mentioned i dont belive there was any priming (and wasnt mentioned in what i was charged as it was for adhesives) but given that while this work was being undertaken very strictly nobody was allowed near any areas worked on but the tiler himself (incase they accidentally walked on...) so it was difficult to see if he used any. Would any primer layer be visible if a tile is taken up?

Daz- as written, the sounds vary in strength and occurence- sometimes a tiny sharp click or a tiny duller pop. Its intermittent on many of the affected tiles but that's how the tiles /which now show sign some movement / lines down the side of their grouting, situated in the higher stress areas started off so its my expectation that these with very minimal noise etc l noise are just further behind in any failing process because they've not been walked on as much.

I've been having the UFH on in short bursts of low heat and have now let it cool down completely and from early findings I think the heat exasperates the noise problem, which is pretty logical.

Sir Ramic: not yet, i dont want anybody eles touching them at this very early stage as that could cause me problems. As for the exact materials (apart from lafarge gyvlon which ive confirmed) ive explained im meeting later today so hopefully it should become clearer then.

Thanks
Gubbins

 

[jay]

Might be worth tapping the tiles to see if they are drummy might give you a better indication on the extent of the problem

 

[Ajax123]

A layer of primer would be visible but only really if you know what you are looking for if it is acrylic. It does depend though on the adhesive used as to if a primer would have been. Needed. Once you have all the info post what ou can so that more "educated" opinions can be offered because so far it is all speculation. All or none of those expressed so far might be right.

Also if you know who screeded the floor it might help to pinpont the type of screed used. There are lots of different gyvlon and gyvlon typescreeds available.

If it is a lafarge screed i can talk to you privately about dropping a sample into our labs at warrington for visual analysis.

 

[widler]

i think you need to take a few tiles up when possible and post a few pics of the floor and back of tiles,a lot of guessing going on with no proper evidence(although good guessing)

 

[gubbins]

fao: Ajaz it is floated lafarge gyvlon, so will pm you as soon as i manage to get a tile up- still struggling to get them to lift a single tile or reveal the exact adhesive, which is frustrating and highly suspicious. For all I know it could be like a crunchie bar under there ;( I'm still gathering facts and technical info in the meantime.

There have been meetings and flurries of mass emails (they accept there's a definite problem and that there are air pockets in the adhesive (all still without lifting a single tile) which they've made some suggestions for (sorry to be vague about this suggestion but needs must atm and ive flat refused anyway) but in short it's me v lots of them still, but i'll be staying strong and wont be paying a single penny of a large retention fee (for the whole renovation project) until this is sorted to my satisfaction.

Thanks so much again everyone, ill be contacting a couple of you by pm just as soon as i'm in a position to offer more info etc and thanks for those who've already contacted me, you've all renewed my faith!

gubbins

 

[jay]

Thanks for the update

 

[gubbins]

Hello all again, just a brief update:

Adhesive - confirmed as Mapei Keraquik
Primer - (assumed it was used) some PVA solution.
Screed - already known to be floated lafarge Gyvlon.
Tiles- Still not one lifted ...*sighs*

Thankfully Gyvlon (Data Sheets)

and Mapei (http://www.mapei.com/public/GB/products/103_Keraquick_UK.PDF)

provide detailed guidelines regarding using their products but if anybody's able to link up any more official guidelines on PVA, floor tolerances, etc. Im looking to have all parties meet, also attended by reps from Mapei and Gyvlon.

Thanks so much

Gubbins

 

[jay]

Might be worth reading http://www.tilersforums.com/tile-ad...p-v-versus-primers.html?highlight=pva+primers

 

[DHTiling]

Just to add, you can leave wet ufh running as long as it is set to the lowest temp, an ambient temperature.. it is the initial commissioning that is needed.. then you cool down to ambient..

But always check it is ok with adhesive comp.

 

[gubbins]

Might be worth reading http://www.tilersforums.com/tile-ad...p-v-versus-primers.html?highlight=pva+primers

Thanks Jay, I i did some googling as soon as the primer was told to me, and that came up, very depressing. Also been reading them good threads recommending Gypfix for use on Gyvlon floors.

 

[gubbins]

Just to add, you can leave wet ufh running as long as it is set to the lowest temp, an ambient temperature.. it is the initial commissioning that is needed.. then you cool down to ambient..

Thanks Dave. Are there any official guidelines to the initial commisioning of UFHout there?

 

[jay]

Your on the right track learn as much as you can prior to the meeting good luck and please keep us up to date

 

[gubbins]

Your on the right track learn as much as you can prior to the meeting good luck and please keep us up to date

Thanks Jay I absolutely intend to.

It makes my blood boil (and i'm sure many on here feel the same as you all get tarnished as a result) that we all have the same easy access to the internet and a fantastic wealth of experience and knowledge on it such as on forums like this, yet a tiler (an possibly other trades) having working for so many years in his profession doesn't feel the need to keep up to date regarding practices and products, nor follow accepted guidelines.

In my own job if we didnt carry out continual professional development to a recognised standard we would no longer be registered to be able to work in that field yet some long serving tradesmen remain so blasé with other peoples property and money.

Getting them all to turn up to the meeting will be like knitting mercury, but i'll do my upmost. Im off to speak to some UFH specialists.

All the best

Gubbins

 

[Ajax123]

There is quite a wealth of ino on the gyvlon.co.uk web site. If you need more info or help directly from gyvlon i am happy for you to ring me at work on 07545 932723. it is my supicion that you will be fighting rear guard all the way with this as no one will want to take responsibility. In reality and in my experience there is likely to be a combination of issues rather than one single underlying cause.

The thing that often gets the blame is the gyvlon itself as if it has some sort of grudge against people sticking tiles down to it, which always makes me chuckle.

Tiles fail because things have been done incorrectly, someone has made mistakes. Defining what those mistakes actually are can be incredibly difficult as everyone goes on the defensive and getting all parties to actually agree on the cause or causes is the most difficult bit of all.

You are welcome to ring me should the need arise.

 

[The Legend; Phil Hobson RIP]

As Alan says could be a Combination of bad practice, the PVA , maybe not enough expansion joints, not commissioning the floor, no decoupling membrane, its even possible the tiles have been dot and dabbed as you thought there might be air pockets ( voids ) in the adhesive.

I notice you asked about governing bodies, the TTA is a trade association. They do reports that stand up in court, but the report would cost in excess of £800.00. costly,but would lay the blame on the guilty party/parties

I really hope you get a good result, stories like this don't sit well with the members of TF. Good luck.

 

[gubbins]

Things are progressing slowly but in the direction of a resolution. Want to say a huge thanks to Ajax and Philhobson for their expert advice on and off the forum. Hats off to you two. Phil you have PM.