Went into the Lab Today!

[widler]

The ply is not a single piece, it's 2 peices butted together and a tile bridging the gap. They are trying to see how far the ply can be pulled apart (contraction/expansion) before the tile or addy fails. This is just the first piece, the other pieces have various brands of decouplers (again two peices of ply, bridged by the decupler then a tile on top) to see what the decouplers bring to the party.

well then thats different then,i must learn to watch it all the way through,instead of skipping :mad2: :lol:

 

[Colour Republic]

well then thats different then,i must learn to watch it all the way through,instead of skipping :mad2: :lol:

Im not sure if its mentioned in this vid or not?

this is part 2 of the test, the first part showed the guys setting the test up and explaining what they are trying to do

 

[Protilers]

[video=youtube_share;nGDp8LOL__g]http://youtu.be/nGDp8LOL__g[/video]

[video=youtube_share;vg-bHiPiUIk]http://youtu.be/vg-bHiPiUIk[/video]

[video=youtube_share;rcrLpr1x6bk]http://youtu.be/rcrLpr1x6bk[/video]

 

[Dan]

Hello all......

I went to the Lab today and met up with Gary (gary the tiler) and Ray (ray tt).............

here is what happened!

[video=youtube_share;rcrLpr1x6bk]http://youtu.be/rcrLpr1x6bk[/video]

all the best.....Happy new year!

Lee

When you test tile adhesive strength, or decoupler strength, the british standard uses a 'tensile test' not just hacking away at it or pulling it apart. A tensile test uses (and measures) force of two joined tiles by way of putting pressure on the adhesive (or decoupler) only.

How you do that is for example get two 6x6 fully vitrified porcelain tiles (so the tile doesn't break first) and fix them together with a 20mm lip on each of them (so they're in effect back to back, with a 20mm lip at the top and bottom) and then use a tensile machine to apply pressure to them vertically.

So then the pressure is added steadily and increased in increments. You'll find the machine measures pressure to the point of it breaking the adhesion, then what pressure it was at when it broke gives the adhesive or decoupler it's rating or whatever.

Watching you guys taking turns hacking away at tiles that have been stuck down for a couple of weeks is entertaining but it's not really measuring the strength of anything. Too many factors are involved when you do it the way you do it.

If you want to do some tests that have value, you should get a tensile machine and some of the other gubbings that get used in actual tests of adhesives and whatnot.

Don't get me wrong I like watching you messing around drilling holes and whatnot but it's just messing around really IMO. You want to get some awesome tests done that carry weight when it comes to quality of products.

 

[Diamond Pool Finishers]

Very well put Dan, i was trying to say the same thing in a garbled way without proper measurements it don't mean any thing (unless two winds on a workmate count !! ) lol i can just see me trying to say to some customer yes it lasted two and three quarter wind's on my mate's workmate in london :smilewinkgrin:

 

[DHTiling]

At least the lads are taking time to do these tests and they know they are not fully conclusive or BS regulated but are having fun whilst doing them... but they were bound to get knocked at some point..


lads... at least some of use appreciate what you are trying to do..

 

[Tony73]

I'd say it's not the day to talk about ..... HAPPY NEW YEAR !

 

[Spud]

With due respect Dan what's the point of doing a test that has already been done if you look at the teething equipment used in the tiling industry it is actually very Low tech Ann was designed in the 60s and 70s there are diagrams of some of the apparatus in AS 118 the American tiling standard and the Robinson machine is in effect a plank of wood with castors on it loaded with weights we have come up with a design for a jig to accurately do this test and look forward to your comments when we have finished and will give you a table of results

 

[Spud]

That should say testing equipment not teething equipment lol new tablet

 

[Protilers]

to the tiler on the ground....."he" does not give a stuff about tensile strenth.....it means diddley squat!.......nothing.....
what a tiler cares about is "does it work?".......and the fact of the matter is (at this point, (for me)) is...
Decouplers only actually guarentee lateral expansion.......and NOT "bounce".....to have a lateral fracture is "almost" imposssible with an S1 adhesive.....IMO

and Belive me we tried............ALOT!.........

 

[Protilers]

at the end of the day (it gets dark)...........and decouplers "shold" be classified as "crack isolators"......because.......that is the one function that they do 100% of the time IMO,if you have any movement in a floor....you need to address it.............(a decoupler wont help!)

and if you have a solid floor.......you dont need a decoupler!!!!!!


weird! EH!

 

[DHTiling]

Not sure about the don't need a de-coupler.. new timber builds that are tiled soon after completion are subject to quite a bit of timber shrinkage.. hence hwy the test you lads have done is quite similar to stress from what a timber floor could exert ...

The test IMO is as near to thermal/lateral stress that a membrane will encounter whilst adhered to a substrate and tiled.. so hats off to you lads for trying.

 

[Diamond Pool Finishers]

Not sure about the don't need a de-coupler.. new timber builds that are tiled soon after completion are subject to quite a bit of timber shrinkage.. hence hwy the test you lads have done is quite similar to stress from what a timber floor could exert ...

The test IMO is as near to thermal/lateral stress that a membrane will encounter whilst adhered to a substrate and tiled.. so hats off to you lads for trying.

if the guys want to re-create thermal/lateral stress , then they would be better off putting the samples in a fridge then straight into an oven surly !! pulling the sample apart is not the same IMO ..... and i'am not having a go at them just trying to make sense of there experiment .....

 

[Protilers]

AAAAAHHHHH...but Dave.....

we have noggined out our floors.......then we have installed 18mm ply over floorboards.....at 200mm centres........it is as solid as a rock!!!...
we have allowed a 5mm "expansion" between the 18mm ply boards.....that we have fillled with Silicon.......

its as solid as a rock!.........

why do I need a decoupler?............afterall...they only give a guarentee against laterall movement?........

not diggin............I have to get the car ready........nite nite!

 

[Diamond Pool Finishers]

to the tiler on the ground....."he" does not give a s... about tensile strenth.....it means diddley squat!.......nothing.....
what a tiler cares about is "does it work?".......and the fact of the matter is (at this point, (for me)) is...
Decouplers only actually guarentee lateral expansion.......and NOT "bounce".....to have a lateral fracture is "almost" imposssible with an S1 adhesive.....IMO

and Belive me we tried............ALOT!.........

just found this LEE an interesting read .
With more than 40,000 calls annually to its free technical advice line, BAL's experts hear questions on every aspect of tiling. One current ‘hot topic' concerns the difference between S1 and S2 adhesive classifications. The question is usually a variation upon, "Is an S1 adhesive better than an S2 adhesive?"
The degree of flexibility in an adhesive matters when there is likely to be lateral movement from pulling (tension), pushing (compression), bending (flexing) or twisting (torsion) during the tiling's lifetime. This can happen to some degree almost anywhere. There are many possible causes of differing movements including vibrations, drying shrinkage, ambient humidity or temperature fluctuations, the amount of static and dynamic loading on the floor and deflection stresses. The most common substrate providing movement in tiling though are timber floors.
S1 and S2 classifications are optional, additional classifications for cementitious adhesives defined in BS EN 12002:2002. These classifications basically relate to how an adhesive will deform in order to accommodate a limited amount of movement after tile fixing (known as transverse deformation).
An adhesive allowing transverse deformation of less than 2.5 mm in the specified test is not regarded as deformable. Those permitting deformation above 2.5mm, but less than 5mm are classified as S1. Adhesives that are highly deformable and allow transverse deformation of 5mm or more are classified as S2. It is possible to modify cementitious adhesives that are not S1 classified with a suitable liquid or powder polymer additive to improve the formulation to that of an S1 adhesive, but achieving S2 typically requires a higher level of polymer addition i.e. a separate liquid polymer component and/or a modified powder e.g. with rubber.
It is worth remembering that there are two types of deformability. Currently the transverse deformation tests do not measure flexural ability; therefore not taking into account products with "elastomeric properties". An adhesive offering ‘plastic' deformation, such as S1 or S2 adhesives will allow movement, but will not return to its original state. Elastomeric adhesives have rubber-like elasticity and therefore offer ‘elastomeric' deformation. Elastomeric adhesives therefore are so flexible they will allow movement and return to its original "neutral state" when there is relaxation of the movement stresses; therefore offering much greater deformation. As not all deformable adhesives are elastomeric, this is worth checking.
With that in mind, a single-part, highly polymer-modified cementitious adhesive is generally capable of attaining an S1 classification. It will undergo plastic deformation in its early life but fully cured it has increased adhesion and compressive strengths. This makes it suitable for solid structures such as in-situ concrete, concrete blockwork, etc, where initial setting movement and drying shrinkage are the main sources of stress. An S2 adhesive will maintain some deformation properties when fully cured and therefore be more suitable for installations subject to frequent or permanent vibration such as timber. Where there are areas of ongoing movement and deformation is likely to be quite large, products that contain elastomeric fillers and are modified with acrylic polymer admixture, such as BAL Fastflex, should be used as they are highly deformable, elastomeric and exceed the S2 requirement by a factor of three.
So, is an S1 adhesive ‘better' than an S2 adhesive? BAL has manufactured S1 and S2 adhesives for some years, as well as products which greatly exceed the minimum S2 requirements. This is because varying deformability and flexural strengths are needed for differing tiling applications. Not all S2 adhesives are the same. For timber floors and installations subject to frequent or permanent vibration the adhesive needs to be more deformable and ultimately and logically an S2 adhesive with elastomeric properties would then be the ‘better' choice.