What are the arrows on the back of porcelain tiles for

[jonnyc]

I have tried to get answers to this question before and the answers have been mixed.
i have just started a good sized floor in a domestic house which is about 260sq mts 736 x736 polished porcelain.
the tiles were not cheap and came from Italy.
inside the boxing there was a very detailed statement on how to fix tiles but absolutely no mention of directional arrows on back of tile that may need to be followed in installation.
anyway the tiles have been very difficult to fix as they flex as do a lot of large format porcelain but also the corners curl up on some tiles or bow up or down from centre tile out.
we have ended up with a proportion of tiles that are flush at the ends but with an approx 0.5mm lip at centre to adjoining tile. Tile joint 2mm
or flush for 650mm then flick up 0.5 to 1mm in last 100 mm of tile length.
frankly this is embarrassing and makes us look like we cannot fix a tile flat to someone who does not understand the bowing in tiles.
we are only talking 0.5mm deviation over 738mm but in my company this is unacceptable fixing
i have to say that up until now we have been able to cope with the usual problems of porcelain but on this job I am so disappointed and worried about taking on further large format porcelain in future.
i don't want to turn down work like this as my company is set up for large format stone and we are very experienced in bedding large tiles and I am thinking that if we are struggling then there must be many others as well.
am I alone in having problems with bowed tiles which are square laid?
are we missing a trick during installation?
Does the arrow on back of tile if followed Negate lipping as tiles will all deform and bow in relation to how they enter the firing process ? I don't believe this as there are 4 axis options if you have to follow arrow and therefore we should have 25 percentage lippage and we don't have any where near that.

 

[steve187]

would leveling pegs have made a difference

 

[John Benton]

I remember you posing the question before Jonny, and to be honest there were a few different answers, all of which sounded plausible.

I have followed arrows previously as the pattern on the front followed a certain direction and if turned the wrong way obviously ruins the flow of the pattern.

Never found that it would relate to the bowing of tiles, to follow arrows, and so eliminate lipping.

Which manufacturer are they Jonny, as I really only fit Italian porcelain through my supplier and I've never had a problem with lipping the tiles are always spot on.

 

[Spud]

Hi Jonny the level of deviation you are experiencing is about the average you find with 95 % of polished porcelain it is why the recommended joint width for large foramt tiles is 3mm any narrower joint than this highlights the bowing of the tiles i have said for many years fixing porcelain is unforgiving but if the bowing is too much you can get the floors ground flat with mechanical polishers

 

[Ajax123]

Italian Ceramic Tiles - Italian Tiles - Ceramic Tiles of Italy - ItalyTile.com

See number 4.

 

[Concrete guy]

I'd have thought this would be an ideal use of lash clips. Would a system like that be strong enough to pull the bow out of a porcelain tile until the adhesive grabbed?

 

[Martyn Leeds]

I had some 600x600 polished porcelain a bit back and there was a slight bow in the tiles. After scratching my head and my arse for a bit, I then decided to try lay them all with the arrows pointing the same way and it did make a slight difference. Dunno if was just a fluke on this particular tile, but if it happens again I'll be putting the arrows the same way again

 

[jonnyc]

Well I bought some lash clips but they do not solve the problem.
the more I think about this product the less I am impressed.
we have been shoving horseshoe spacers under tiles which have a bow to adjacent tile and it helps a bit. But I have serious concerns about putting pressure under tiles that could break the bond.
maybe I am being too picky but my business was mainly stone and I am proud that our team of fixers can all lay stone tiles of most sizes and be able to seta 2.5 mt box section aluminium on top without any gap under the full length of edge.
i have had to accept that we can't do this with porcelain but a 0.5 mm lip looks dreadful to me Ina certain light or angle.
Am I kissing a trick here.
this is the reason I have been put off porcel thin tiles.
I have never shied away from large format but if I had to accept that 0.5mm or 1mm lip,over a 1000m is ok and norm , I will never get in to this sector and I would be dissapointed because I don't think it is because of lack of skill. I just couldn't face people judging our work as being substandard because of bowing tiles

 

[jonnyc]

I remember you posing the question before Jonny, and to be honest there were a few different answers, all of which sounded plausible.

I have followed arrows previously as the pattern on the front followed a certain direction and if turned the wrong way obviously ruins the flow of the pattern.

Never found that it would relate to the bowing of tiles, to follow arrows, and so eliminate lipping.

Which manufacturer are they Jonny, as I really only fit Italian porcelain through my supplier and I've never had a problem with lipping the tiles are always spot on.

I will get name of Italian supplier tomorrow.
john I have followed the arrows many times and this is the first time I did not and that was only because the fixing instructions on inside of box was so comprehensive and no mention of arrows plus fact that I asked the tile supplier and they said arrows not relevant.

 

[jonnyc]

Hi Jonny the level of deviation you are experiencing is about the average you find with 95 % of polished porcelain it is why the recommended joint width for large foramt tiles is 3mm any narrower joint than this highlights the bowing of the tiles i have said for many years fixing porcelain is unforgiving but if the bowing is too much you can get the floors ground flat with mechanical polishers

Looks like a I made a boo boo here then gary as I went for a 2mm joint .
tiles really good for square though.

 

[Spud]

Well I bought some lash clips but they do not solve the problem.
the more I think about this product the less I am impressed.
we have been shoving horseshoe spacers under tiles which have a bow to adjacent tile and it helps a bit. But I have serious concerns about putting pressure under tiles that could break the bond.
maybe I am being too picky but my business was mainly stone and I am proud that our team of fixers can all lay stone tiles of most sizes and be able to seta 2.5 mt box section aluminium on top without any gap under the full length of edge.
i have had to accept that we can't do this with porcelain but a 0.5 mm lip looks dreadful to me Ina certain light or angle.
Am I kissing a trick here.
this is the reason I have been put off porcel thin tiles.
I have never shied away from large format but if I had to accept that 0.5mm or 1mm lip,over a 1000m is ok and norm , I will never get in to this sector and I would be dissapointed because I don't think it is because of lack of skill. I just couldn't face people judging our work as being substandard because of bowing tiles

the thin ones are easier to fix jonny as the lippage can be controller with lash clips as the tiles flex unlike the 10 and 12mm stuff

 

[John Benton]

Jonny, it can only be the fault of the tiles and you cannot be responsible for the lipping, although it does reflect on the fitter in the eyes of the customer.

I fixed 1m x 0.5m tiles in my own bathroom on wall and floor and they were mm perfect, no bowing, perfect finish. I did use a 3mm joint on both walls and floors.

 

[jonnyc]

So do you use the lash clips on the porcel thin?
i think I need to come and see one of your porcel thin jobs gary to restore my confidence .
i know you would not fix them unless you could get the right finish you want .
i am just really REMOVED off when we take a lot of time to set tiles and I the finish is a disappointment to me .

 

[Spud]

So do you use the lash clips on the porcel thin?
i think I need to come and see one of your porcel thin jobs gary to restore my confidence .
i know you would not fix them unless you could get the right finish you want .
i am just really REMOVED off when we take a lot of time to set tiles and I the finish is a disappointment to me .

some I do, some I dont I have a 270 m2 floor coming up in 90 x90 5.5mm thin tiles from the best factory producing these thin tiles ,you are more than welcome to come over when we doing it its central london location

 

[Peter]

Have had to put a tile off cut over joints with a breezeblock /bag of adhesive set on top quite regularly with large format. Certainly helps bring them down a bit anyway.

 

[jonnyc]

Italian Ceramic Tiles - Italian Tiles - Ceramic Tiles of Italy - ItalyTile.com

See number 4.

Thanks for that.much appreciated
makes me feel much better.

 

[Houston]

when arrows are on the backs of tiles, i always run them the same way. If tiles are fixed brick bond method will always bond by a third, it just seems to help with some of the descrepancies and sometimes will give a bigger joint but that will depend on tile and client.

 

[tilerbarry]

You should be using a 5mm joint on these size tiles really, and 2 part flexible adhesive like Keraquick & Latexplus because of the size of the tiles. Also movement joints every 7 metres. As I understand it the arrow is a manufacturing detail not a fixer detail.

 

[jonnyc]

well thanks for all the info but it seems that there is certainly divided opinion on the arrows on back of tiles and personally i am staggered that this question has not come up many times before.
i brought this up myself some time ago as john reminded me and i am still not clear.
ajax had a link that says that the arrow should not influence tile fixing and that is comforting when i have not followed it this time, but whilst taking in what that link says i can still see the point of view of gary and a few other friends i know ,in that if the tiles are supposed to go in to the kiln with arrow in one direction there is a good chance that if bowing occurs then it may follow the same pattern.
by elimination thought process , if you follow the tiling with the arrow you have a more reasonable chance that the bowed corners / middle humps marry up.
that said i am assured from followers of this cult that are always exceptions that do not always relate to cost of tile purchased .
So way i see it i will go back to following arrows as i have always done as i have never had a problem like this when doing so, and just take the percentage chance of a gambler

 

[Fliselege]

Asked the manager in my supplier today this question after seeing it posted. His reply was this, so don't shoot the messenger. When tiles are made, say for example 30 x 30, they are made 30 x 90 then cut twice to give 3 30 x 30. The middle cuts go to the cheap retailers as they have 2 good edges, and the 2 outside cuts go to proffesional retailers as they have 3 good edges. The arrows should be followed as the cuts may not be perfect if you mis match the direction. Might be the answer, might be a load of poppy ****, either way, I follow the arrows anyway and always have. Having said that, have worked with many tiles with 4 good edges, so back to the drawing board....

 

[jonnyc]

ok i get that and think i agree .
but i do not have issues with tile size,only bowing, but appreciate you taking time to ask.
its quite an interesting issue.
the main reason i did not follow the arrow was that the box of infinitum instruction did not mention arrows and because the tiles had a vague directional movement to replicate marble which repeated every 7 tiles i thought by turning the tile randomly i could effect a floor with 28 different permutations rather than 7 and thereby look totally random.
sometimes thinking about something can cause more problems than necessary eh?

 

[Delta Stark]

From what I know, which isn't much, arrows on the back of a tile class the tile as 'handed' and they should be fitted with all the arrows pointing the same way...that's all I know.
As for lipping, most tiles measuring between 50cm and above at any point are subject to 'bowing' so lipping is almost unavoidable.

 

[widler]

Christ,I've fit loads of porca floors and got half way through and noticed the arrow,then thought,sheet,next one I'll follow the arrow,nope always forget to look

 

[radim]

this is pic of pack of porcelanosa tiles.

sorry for upside down pic, don't know how to rotate.