Who is right ?

[limco]

I agree we cannot say what regs sweden says but one question..?

Do you as a tiler not know Swedish by-laws/regs for pipe work..?.. is it part of your your tiling regs..?

Dave: as I said, they are changing these rules all the time.
To get your tiling licience over here, you have to go on 3 courses- the 1st one is all the tiling rules, the 2nd is the law of the building trade and the 3rd is the products you use.
The tiling rules, include how you should cover those pipes coming through the walls and up through the floor, by using these...

I have used this plumbing company for all my bathrooms, they do a wonderful job and I trust them- and if there is a special way the pipes must be in a bathroom, it's them that should know and of course tell me...then I will prepare those pipes before the tiling starts.
So the answer to your question is No !
Plus at the end of every job, I write the customer a certificate for thier new bathroom, stating which products I have used and I have followed the tiling rules according to the Swedish bathroom laws from and to 2006.....( note 2006 )

 

[SandyFloor]

When you say you have used this plumbing company for all your bathrooms, did you use them for this bathroom? What I mean is although the customer paid them direct were they actually working under you? If that's the case I can understand where the customer is coming from and why they feel it's your resposibility to deal with the problem.

Also was this work just to do tiling & joinery or to do the whole bathroom? If you did the work as a bathroom fitter using subbies ( regardless of who pays them) then I would see it being your responsibility too.

Once again foreign regs are alien to me but that's the way I would see it over here.

 

[limco]

Hi Sandy, yeah! these plumbers did this bathroom in mention.
And yes, the work is for all the bathroom, but I do tell the customers that I bring in another company for the plumbing and the Electric's and when they have excepted my estimate- I take along the plumbers to the customers and they explain what will have to be done and how much it will cost.
The plumbers should have known the new rules and told these customers- know what I mean ?
If the blame is totally mine, then I will fix it, there is no problem there- but I didn't do the pipe work and didn't leave a guarantee for them.
But I did talk with my Brother in law this morning- he is from Denmark and is a building engineer.
He asked me " Did the plumbers send a bill to the customers and they paid it ? "- I said yes!
Then he told me- then it's the Plumbers reasonability- so don't worry.
But I do worry, as it's my good name that is at stake here !- the quicker tomorrow comes the better.

 

[jay]

so you organised the tardies for the job then

 

[Andy Allen]

its no different to what i do.......somone wants a b/r doing they ring me and ask do you know a plumber i say yes we will both come round to see you, i look at the tiling.......its going to cost x-amount.......plumber looks at plumbing work.....his will cost x-amount add the two together they get the total price.......the work is booked in to follow each other and when tiling is completed i get paid by customer and when plumbing is completed plumber gets paid by customer..........if theres a massive leak and the ceiling falls down not my problem same as if all the tiles fall off not the plumbers problem.

 

[limco]

Hi Andy, yeah! that's what I was thinking.
Plus I have read over and over again the tilers rules for Sweden and it states nothing about pipe work.

 

[limco]

Sorry for the absence, but this case is still on the fire.
Okay, here is the up date.
Swedish Tiling rules states, no pipes sould come up from the floor from Aug 2010.
The bathroom in mention was done in Aug and my plumbers told the customers the pipes would have to come up through the flooor, as it would cost too much money to get them through the walls, after the main water pipes are in the basement- the customers agreed to this, and I was there when this was discussed.
The customers are now selling thier house and the building inpector has told the possible buyers of the pipes coming through the floor is against the tiling rules.
They then looked over my certificate and saw nothing about the pipes up through the floor.............this is were I went wrong, and one can make a mistake eh!
Now the customers father is a lawyer, and he is demanding me and the plumber to re-do the bathroom, as his daughter can not sell the house, because of the pipes.
And he is telling us that we are both lying about saying the customers agreed to this..............but he would.
This is all happening as the people who are interested in buying the house, are offering less money because if the pipes in the bathroom.
Now the Swedish Tiling branch lawyer who I have now, talking on my behalf- has told the other lawyer- "If the pipes could be seen and they were not hidden, then the customers should have reported this after 2 months- but the Tiler and plumber involved in this job, are willing to write out a new certificate"
But this daughters lawyer, is still wanting us to re do the bathroom....
So this is the up date on this subject...........a lot of sleepless nights and too many phonecalls- time for some meatballs.

 

[mikethetile]

so the pipes have to come up through the wall , whats the purpose of that

 

[limco]

so the pipes have to come up through the wall , whats the purpose of that

So that the whole bathroom floor is tight using the Waterproofing Membrane - and only the water drains can go through the floor.
New Swedush Rules..........

 

[mikethetile]

right I understand now, so to bring pipes up from below you would have to go up through the wall, it makes sense to have a watertight floor, maybe they should consider that here, it wwould cut down on hefty insurance claims

as to your question it depends on wether you brought your own plumber in on the job even if the plumbers contract was direct with the client, it would be considered your job with your reccomended plumber hence the fil writing to you, but as to the actual legal position you would need to speak to a swedish lawyer

 

[vosnack]

Seems to me like it's clearly the paperwork that fails you in this case. If you had stated pipework coming through the floor in your certificate, would you have any of this problem?

 

[doug boardley]

so if it was done in August and the new regs came out in August, does this mean that every house in Sweden that had a bathroom refurbed and put on the market(in August) may need a retro fix?

 

[limco]

Seems to me like it's clearly the paperwork that fails you in this case. If you had stated pipework coming through the floor in your certificate, would you have any of this problem?

Exactly ! No problem, as this would have covered me.

 

[limco]

so if it was done in August and the new regs came out in August, does this mean that every house in Sweden that had a bathroom refurbed and put on the market(in August) may need a retro fix?

If the buildering Inspector spots this, and if its not writing on the bathroom certificate- then they will have the same problem as me.
But usualy the customer will contact the Tiler and both customer and the Tiler could work out a solution together.
But in my case- the customer didn't contact me- it was Papa the Lawyer, and this has only made matters worse-
Demanding this and that, and trying to scare me with his huge words.

 

[vosnack]

If you change the certificate will the current owners have the same problem with potential buyers? Can you date your certificate backwards?

 

[limco]

If you change the certificate will the current owners have the same problem with potential buyers? Can you date your certificate backwards?

Yes ! I could give out a new certificate to the new owners- and they will not have a problem when selling the house.
As it would state why those pipes have come through the floor.....
But it's the daughters Papa (the lawyer) who is creating this fuss.

 

[Dan]

Basically they loose money on the property if it's not to current regs. This lawyer isn't going to settle for anything but top dollar for the house by the sounds of it so I'd start considering getting a fix sorted out.

You took on the job and used a subby plumber. Perhaps you could argue that as a tiler you're not a plumber and he should have known that. But you'll loose your relationship with him quickly.

If you can back date the certificate perhaps then the house will sell at the right price as it is to standard (technically). Maybe that's a cheap free fix but if the lawyer doesn't like the sound of it, he'll use it against you if something does come of this.

Lesson learnt. Keep up with the regs!

 

[limco]

Totally agree with you :
Myself and the plumbing company have come up with a solution and sent our proposal to this lawyer, wether he excepts it, it's up to him.
And as you have said: a lesson to be learned here, but a costly one.

 

[vosnack]

But will it really cost that much to repair it? Time and money. If you consider the way they look at this situation I'm sure you would like it fixed properly. I don't know how extensive this job would be but I think fixing it may do you better than settling for compromise (sorry for my english). Obviously plumber should play his part as well.

 

[limco]

Update:
Well we have sent this lawyer our solution for the pipes coming up from the floor and it complies with the Swedish Tiling rules- and we are in our right to fix these pipes, but it looks like this lawyer is declining our offer and taking us to court and trying to sue us for £13,000, as he also wants the guest toilet done as well, because there is 2 pipes coming up from the floor in there as well.

My lawyer has told me, "let him take us to court"

1/ All faults with a bathroom, must be reported to the company 2 months after the bathroom has been finished- this is for faults that can be seen, and they have reported this 3 months after.

2/ Our solution was declined and according to the building trade over here in Sweden, we are in our right to go into the house and resolve the problems- before any court proceddings

3/The customer has declined to talk to me or the plumber about the problem, but instead, brought in his Father-in-law (the lawyer) to try and get money from us.

I remember when the bathroom was finished, these customers were about crying- because it was the bathroom they dreamed of.
I recieved so many cuddles and even a box of chocolates when I left the house, and they even wrote a lovely referance for my company- they also paid the bill with in 2 days.
Now since this has happened, I have been having sleepless nights and my heart problem has started up again- due to this lawyer who is using a bully tactic to get money for his daughter.

My lawyer has also told me that I didn't have to send a solution and fix these pipes- as thier claim has come in too late, but I am doing this from the kindness of my heart, as I do not want my company to get a bad name.....as this lawyer, is nasty !
Wish you guys could read Swedish, as we have found some disgusting things about him on the net....

 

[Scott]

Limoc, i hate the sound of this lawyer of theres and i hope this works out for you. Im sure that they are just after the money and wont actually have the work put right.

 

[Mouldy]

Sounds like a typical Lawyer to me. They all seem to want to make a name for themselves regardless of what this might do to either party. Scum! ( Well not ALL of them, but most!)

 

[vosnack]

I hope all will work out the best for you. I keep thinking about your situation from time to time so thanks for update. Don't worry too much as your health is much more important than their pipes. I think after reading your last post that you are in a winning situation. Fingers crossed, good luck

 

[Alberta Stone]

I see a use for some 365 drills here, then this would minimize the actual tiles needing to be removed and replaced.

 

[paul78]

keep us posted, as we hope the lawyer LOSES.