Yet Another Suspected Wet Room Floor! Looking For Advice Please!

[Joanne]

Hi there new to this forum and thread. I stumbled across it looking for answers to a similar problem with areas of my grout in a new wet area. Did you ever find out the cause of the leak?? About to tell my builder to carry out checks on the plumbing in the cavity wall. The wet areas are patchy but spreading. They occurred within a week of using the shower and have gradually got worse over the past 2 months.

They are damp ( builder used a damp meter to read) but not drying out even with ufh on. The problem is slowly getting worse. The picture shows area 10 hours after shower last used

 

[Old Mod]

Hi Joanne, welcome to the forum.
It's a shame it's not under better circumstances.
I have moved your post to a new thread in order to give you the best chance of resolving your problem.
Good luck.

 

[Old Mod]

Have you inspected all the sealant work on the vertical corner joints, perimeter of the shower area and around the drain.
Be sure to be meticulous!
Water will penetrate the smallest of holes.

 

[One Day]

I've seen this before on certain trays which don't have weep holes or any way to allow the water in the adhesive bed to escape down the drain.
If you accept that water WILL remain below the tiles in the adhesive bed, then if that water cannot escape and be replaced by fresh water, bacteria will breed in the adhesive and lead to grout discolouration and ultimately - cement break-down.
I remember most recently a marmox-type tray which most definitely didn't have any means of allowing the sub-tile water to drain. It looked like this: A little upstand all the way around the drain.
Easy enough to tile up to, but how does the water escape?!

http://i59.photobucket.com/albums/g304/bathstyle/019.jpg

 

[Joanne]

Thank you thank you all. Waiting in for plumber / builder now. Think they are going to remove the grout in first instance. Will update later

 

[Paula]

Hi Joanne

Very sorry to hear that you are having the same problems as us (I am assuming that you have read my very long thread!). In fact, I have just updated it and have some (perhaps) encouraging news. It seems that the water that was trapped under our tiles has finally (after 6 months) dispersed, and that no further water seems to be getting under the tiles in the shower area now that we have re-grouted with epoxy and put a good Silicon seal along the shower screen.

I am sure your builder will inspect the grout carefully, and I would imagine they will find some areas where water is seeping through. As long as you are convinced that the grout is not cracking because the tiles are moving (in which case they will have to be taken up and re-laid) then I would suggest asking them to re-grout with epoxy. Just be aware that you may, like us, have several months ahead where you get wet patches beyond the shower screen while the water dries out.

Fingers crossed ours finally has settled down, and the epoxy looks great.

I hope you will have similar success!

Paula

 

[Joanne]

Well they removed the grout today and then reported back that it was dry underneath the first few mms of "wet" grout. No evidence of moisture under the tiles at all. The top layers of grout did appear to be somewhat soft in the wet looking areas.

No leaks apparent from the plumbing.

They have re-grouted with the same mapei grout and advised me to keep them posted when we start using the shower again. I will post again with results

 

[Ian]

Hi @Joanne, was the grout a consistent colour after the the initial installation? It looks a more like efflorescence to me rather than the grout staying wet.

 

[Joanne]

Yes it was. Looked lovely. One darker area appeared within a couple of weeks which you could almost scratch away. I did this for a bit on the one area but more kept appearing which is then when I called the installers back thinking there might be a leak. They checked with a damp metre and the dark areas were damp.

 

[One Day]

it's water stuck under the tiles!
these type of trays trap it against the drain assembly. if this type of drain is used, best to use epoxy grout and Silicon around the drain.
i guarantee if this tray is used more than once a day, it will get worse....

 

[Paula]

it's water stuck under the tiles!
these type of trays trap it against the drain assembly. if this type of drain is used, best to use epoxy grout and Silicon around the drain.
i guarantee if this tray is used more than once a day, it will get worse....

Just out of interest, which trays have the "weep holes" around the drain that you referred to earlier? I must admit I've never heard of this before. Our tray was an Impey tray and certainly didn't boast of having any such holes, and we had exactly the same problem as Joanne. If I ever had another wetroom installed I would be interested to know which trays had such a feature?

 

[One Day]

Just out of interest, which trays have the "weep holes" around the drain that you referred to earlier? I must admit I've never heard of this before. Our tray was an Impey tray and certainly didn't boast of having any such holes, and we had exactly the same problem as Joanne. If I ever had another wetroom installed I would be interested to know which trays had such a feature?

the only ones i've seen which drain sub-surface water are schluter's ditra-drain.
it's a problem with design which is only just starting to become apparent in the UK.
Most manufacturers have a head in the sand attitude unfortunately.
The US and Aus have sussed it long ago though.

 

[One Day]

Read this: http://www.schluter.com/media/Gobis_Waterproofing_Tragedies.pdf?v=201510140601
Explains it easier than I can.

 

[thompsonbrown]

Your right Impey trays don't have weep holes but do have a large amount of adjustment to carer for all tile sizes. I fit a lot of wetrooms and always insist is is fitted with underfloor heating as most grouts aren't waterproof.

 

[One Day]

it's not just impey. loads of trays have little upstands. ufh is a good idea, as is epoxy grout too.
when i went on Schluter's training course it was a real education learning that water management rather than prevention is key to making a wet area last.

 

[bcd-87]

it's water stuck under the tiles!
these type of trays trap it against the drain assembly. if this type of drain is used, best to use epoxy grout and Silicon around the drain.
i guarantee if this tray is used more than once a day, it will get worse....

@Bri its water under the tray ok !!

 

[bcd-87]

😀😀😀

 

[Paula]

it's not just impey. loads of trays have little upstands. ufh is a good idea, as is epoxy grout too.
when i went on Schluter's training course it was a real education learning that water management rather than prevention is key to making a wet area last.

So....given that we are stuck with our Impey tray (with no weepholes), but have re-grouted with epoxy, and have a polypipe (wet) underfloor heating system in the bathroom everywhere other than in the actual shower tray area, do you think our floor will last a good few years without failing?

 

[One Day]

@Bri its water under the tray ok !!

Yes - It is showing efflorescence, as a result of wet grout staying wet from trapped water.
I'm just explaining the most probable cause, rather than just stating the effect.

 

[One Day]

So....given that we are stuck with our Impey tray (with no weepholes), but have re-grouted with epoxy, and have a polypipe (wet) underfloor heating system in the bathroom everywhere other than in the actual shower tray area, do you think our floor will last a good few years without failing?

I think if the adhesive bed hasn't been ruined by saturation for too long (you'd know as the tiles would be working loose), then the epoxy will keep water out and you'll be fine.
Just watch out around the grate. I would have siliconed around the grate. If it's been grouted, watch out for it pulling away and letting water in again. Just in case...

 

[widler]

By laws of probability shouldnt every wet room floor be showing signs like this floor if all grout lets in water ? Or do some folk just think its natural , you use a shower eveey day its bound to look wet in places most of the time, but some folk thinks it should look perfectly dry the minute you stop using it ?
My shower is used at least 3 times a day and does not ever get perfectly dry, im not saying this is the case on here, but surely shirley its gotta look wet at some point ?

 

[One Day]

we're talking over-saturation Craig - not normal conditions!

 

[One Day]

Right, I just returned from a Wedi AI course and really wrapped my head around just why I am seeing SO many failed wet trays.
The attached picture shows a Wedi tray which has an integral, pre-formed drain - i.e. water cannot help but get down the drain. It also shows the drain cover holder which should be set in place with just a dot of cement based adhesive on each corner.
If it is set on corners only, then water under the tiles can work it's way into the drain.
Time after time though, tilers are completely setting the tiles up to the edges and blocking the under-tile access to the drain. Or - even worse, sealing them up with Silicon.
The trapped water then leads to breakdown of the adhesive and even the cement face of the tray (on cheaper trays certainly) - resulting in the eventual squidgy wet smelly trays I keep coming across.

As I said previously, Schluter have dealt with this for years - so much so that it's a non-issue.
Wedi are well aware that it's a problem and gladly, many of the drains are now redesigned and have slits to minimise the issue.

It's quite simple - if a wet tray is in occasional use - 1-2 times a day it can generally withstand being installed and tiled incorrectly.
If it's in use continuously - i.e. large family or commercial environment, then you simply cannot afford to do things wrong or cut corners.

 

[Paula]

View attachment 78373 Right, I just returned from a Wedi AI course and really wrapped my head around just why I am seeing SO many failed wet trays.
The attached picture shows a Wedi tray which has an integral, pre-formed drain - i.e. water cannot help but get down the drain. It also shows the drain cover holder which should be set in place with just a dot of cement based adhesive on each corner.
If it is set on corners only, then water under the tiles can work it's way into the drain.
Time after time though, tilers are completely setting the tiles up to the edges and blocking the under-tile access to the drain. Or - even worse, sealing them up with Silicon.
The trapped water then leads to breakdown of the adhesive and even the cement face of the tray (on cheaper trays certainly) - resulting in the eventual squidgy wet smelly trays I keep coming across.

As I said previously, Schluter have dealt with this for years - so much so that it's a non-issue.
Wedi are well aware that it's a problem and gladly, many of the drains are now redesigned and have slits to minimise the issue.

It's quite simple - if a wet tray is in occasional use - 1-2 times a day it can generally withstand being installed and tiled incorrectly.
If it's in use continuously - i.e. large family or commercial environment, then you simply cannot afford to do things wrong or cut corners.

Thanks very much for this, Impish! I think I can see what you are gettting at, but we have an Impey tray, and I'm not sure that there would be any access to the drain UNDER the tiles in our case: just to be clear are you saying that with the tray in your photo, then water can get into the drain below the metal grating at the top?

If we don't have this access, then it seems we are doomed to having permanently wet adhesive around our drain (I have noticed that our grout is starting to crack around the metal border of the drain, so would imagine that water is getting through there now).

It does seem very odd, as you say, that nobody talks about this issue, when it can create significant problems. Thanks very much for highlighting it!

 

[Impey Showers]

Hi. Please feel free to call our tech team direct on 01460 258 682

 

[Dan]

Hi. Please feel free to call our tech team direct on 01460 258 682

If the customer has taken time to register on the forum we'd rather advice to be provided here.

I'll let this one slide but please don't just direct our traffic away from the site. Try to help where you can actually in threads.

Only paying sponsors can post emails, web addresses and phone numbers in threads.

 

[One Day]

Hi. Please feel free to call our tech team direct on 01460 258 682

might be just coincidence but most of the problem wet areas i come across involve impey. i don't see much wrong with the product, other than they're installed a lot by plumbers and builders.

 

[J Sid]

might be just coincidence but most of the problem wet areas i come across involve impey. i don't see much wrong with the product, other than they're installed a lot by plumbers and builders.

And are all these failures due to tiling straight onto the tray and not using the TileSafe membrane! ?

 

[One Day]

And are all these failures due to tiling straight onto the tray and not using the TileSafe membrane! ?

unsure Julian as i try not to get involved. it's got to be incorrect use of the stuff though. if it's used at all.

 

[J Sid]

Alot of the trouble with these types of trays are the shops selling them. Most don't stock or have any knowledge of what products are needed for a correct install.
As we know most builders / multi trades have not evolved enough yet to be able to understand how to read fixing instructions which come with these trays

 

[widler]

The impey ones ive used are very good, never had a problem.
The membrane goes under the drain and makes a drain away and the plate just sits on top, so any water what gets under goes down the drain.
Seems a good system.