Your Opinions Please Guys. Grief

[Graham Bright]

As some of you will know I only started my business in January 1st this year. Things are going wuite well and I am now at the stage where I have a decent(ish) pipeline of work that should see me through at least the next 2 months.

However, I am still new and I am sure Niaive to some extent so I would like your advice on the folowing situation.

I have been given a fair bit of work by a plumber who I know fiarly well. I am basically now "his" tiler for most jobs he gets in. When I first started out I told him quite catagorically that I am not the quickest but my work is good and ill give it my all and do him a good price as I want to get my business up and running and build a reputation. Quite simply we agreed a standard price to start with of £20 per m2.

The first hadnful of bathrooms/kitchens went with out hassle. He hen wins a couple of larger jobs and gets me in on them. Although work is taking off I think "great". When I get to the first big job I see that every bathroom is a wetroom. All to be done in 630 x 330 (odd size) italian porclelain, with glass decorative tiles in the shower area. Steps going up to a corner bath, Glass mosaic strips running down the wall near basin. and the floor is the same tiles but different colour and he want matching wall to floor grout lines. He is putting in the wetroom tray for me. The average bathroom is roughly 32 - 40 m2 walls plus floor. The house is a mansion.

Anyway, the rooms need a lot of working out, and the first bathroom took me 8 days start to finish as there is about a thousand cuts the walls are bad and there is about 8 of them where there is boxwork and indents etc. The next bathroom is identicle but probably bigger, there is undertile heating and a couple of decorative things that need working out.

Anyway, it turns out after a while that I am earning about £60 a day. I was keeping track of everything and I know I am slow but that was really worrying me. SO I asked an experienced tiler and he sayd for him 6-7 days would have been his estimate.

On to the next job which is 3 small bathrooms in a house one is a wetroom again. I say great and accept the work as he just tells me its a standard tiling job. When I get there again its 300x 300 polished marble loads of boxing along the bottom, matching grout lines wall and floor, windows and got knows what else. He has quoted his customer a week for these 3 rooms. Its taken me a week to do 2 and I have worked my nuts off. Running up and downstairs to wet cut everything. Its all got to be sealed the walls all needed preparing better. Even all of his bonding round the pipes have massive lumps and I spent an hour just going round smashing the walls flat. I have to pay for my own blades etc as well.

Another job, I was made to wait till 12pm before I could get in there as he was plumbing, 10am the enxt day and a £250 bathroom turned into 5 days work.

None of these jobs he pays me until he has recieved the money from the client. BTW So I can wait a few weeks at a time.

Lately he has been giving me a bit of grief about how long things are taking. I explained that they are never the simple ceramic slap on the wall jobs that he lead me to believe. He should have quoted 2 weeks for the tining of these 3 rooms for example but quotes a week. I know I am slow but I am not that slow.

Now through pressure I have had to get a labourer to help for a few days at my own cost which is basically my money gone of these jobs for a fe days.

Sorry there is more.

I told him a few weeks ago that I have my children for a week a the end of the summer holidays so we can spend some time together and give there mum time off as I dont live with them. I reminded him today that I am on holiday with them next week and he went mad saying I cant go until I have finished his job cause he wants to get paid from the client. He then gave me the cold shoulder like a girl.

I know I am slow but not that much. I cant continue to go on eari ng £50 a day, its doing me in and by the time I have paid petrol, lunch etc I have hardly anything left to pay bills.

He apologised about the marble job once I had got there and offered my an extra fiver a m2 but it still aint enough.

Almost every job has been tough, loads of work, all natural stone, loads of boxing, loads of alcoves, dodogy walls and so on and I dont know what to do.

I have private work at double the money waiting for me but I have to honour my commitments to him and there is about another 4 weeks work to do for him.

I am my own boss and thats the whole reason for going self employed. ANd I have had enough of being taken for a ride I think. Guys round my way are banging tiles in council premises any old how for £29 a m2. Yet I am doing great work for £20 and some weeks lucky if I earn £300.

I was thinking of saying to him tomorrow that ill finish the last room of the marble job for him but the big job he can get someone else unless he was going to get me more time and more money.

Sorry for going on guys but I nearly put one on him earlier and I am well stressed and feel like I am being rammed one up the jaxy.

Please can I have some thoughts. Is it me, is it my speed, is he mugging me off.

Cheers

Graham.

p.s (I wanted the floors on the big job as thats where I can make good money I hoped?)

 

[united]

Think you really need to sit down with your plumber mate and tell him your concerns, maybe if he quotes for the plumbing and you quote for the tiling that would work better? or ask him for a day rate and not a m2 rate?

 

[Dan]

Graham,

I'll re-read all this and reply again. But quickly scanning it, I would firstly say you're in a possession that any newer tiler would love to be in, so try your damnedest to keep this guy, he seems to have quite a nice calibre of customer and it would be a shame to never get those yourself for the future.

However you do need to work together on the jobs in the sense that you both have the same customer, and all three of you need to be on the same level. So work on communication with him (be it your problem or his, doesn't matter - the outcome is a problem for you both) and even call him daily and explain what you've done and whatnot. He'll then get a gauge as to how long it is taking you and will be more accurate with his estimates next time.

Tell him it's the floors or whatever you want first, but my guess is that the first few customers were so happy, he's willing to let you loose on his more important work. That is really a very nice position to be in I'm sure every tiler on here would agree with.

I'd have loved a guy to have pushed me to my limits when I was in my first year and although I'd have got really stressed, you can guarantee when you look back in 12 months and have the perfect working relationship you'd be pleased you did keep trying to improve how the jobs go.

Good luck mate. And chin up. There's always tomorrow.

 

[Deleted member 9966]

why do you have to see it out Graham? if it was my choice, I'd walk. you can't afford to live on what you're earning, plus you have kids to support. this is not the time to be a doormat.

 

[Dan]

Try to come up with a price for the plain meterage, and then a different price for mosaics, large format, that sort of thing.

Though I think I'd stick to meter rate for the sake of keeping the plumber, i'd just go see him, have a good chat, and explain exactly what you have to us.

I think he'll want to keep you but you do need to work together on the solution.

Other than that, I'll stick with what I said above.

Good luck once again.

 

[Graham Bright]

Some good points and I really dont mind taking £20 a m2 for basic ceramic but almost everything so far has been marble, travertine and large format stuff. He has already said no to a day rate as he said he hasnt got enough money in the job but he doesnt mind paying me a fiver extra if its tricky stuff.

 

[Graham Bright]

Cheers Dan.

Can I ask you guys if £20 a m2 is ok? or am I far too low there. What could/should I be charging for large format, mosaics etc.

 

[White Room]

I get the impression someones making money and it obviously is'nt you........

Natural stone and mosaic need to be a higher price, stick to your guns and tell him straight your not prepared to work like this.

I've had the same from a plumber I do work for and he's complaining he not making any money from me but likes to work to a m2 rate on domestic bathrooms.......

And I've had to wait nearly 30 days for the cheques from him even though, like yourself, it's directly from the customer.:incazzato:

 

[Dan]

why do you have to see it out Graham? if it was my choice, I'd walk. you can't afford to live on what you're earning, plus you have kids to support. this is not the time to be a doormat.

If there's better money elsewhere, I'd walk, but I don't think we'd be seeing the question.

20 quid a meter for normal tiling is pretty good right now. And if you can correct the plumber and get a better rate for the more intricate stuff (which might be easy, he just might not know he needs to pay a bit more for it?) then you're on a winner.

I seriously think communication could be better. And like united says even go measure the tiling work up yourself and then give the plumber a price and timescale, which then he puts in his whole job and prices to the customer.

 

[doug boardley]

I'd give him "my way or the highway"

 

[Dan]

Cheers Dan.

Can I ask you guys if £20 a m2 is ok? or am I far too low there. What could/should I be charging for large format, mosaics etc.

It's not uncommon to see your standard ceramic price to increase by anything between half again (50% more) or double when fixing natural stone, large format tiles of most materials but especially stone, trav, marble, even some porcelains.

Though I'd also consider this as being a trade job as the lead is coming from the plumber and you don't have all the time quoting (and you don't get all jobs so even quoting on three jobs yourself you may only get one, could even be a days work quoting for the three on that sort of job depending on their locations etc!) and you're not spending the time with the customers selling to them etc.

Though you can't work for nothing, so this does need sorting out, I'd just work on getting the plumber to understand what he pricing and what the job is worth appear to be totally different things here!

 

[Spud]

you need to talk to him asap about your prices ,he may have priced his work on the rates you gave him,so you need to reprice and give detailed prices for all the types of work you are doing ,dont beat yourself up about speed, quality takes time no matter how experienced are and as long as you are putting in 8 hrs work and its at a good standard then no one will complain especially his customers

 

[kilty55]

hi graham im in abn alomst identical situ at the moment, i subby for a number of plumbers and bathroom cos, 2 of them however i shot myself in the ffot with from day 1 by giving them a similar meterage rate,it was fine at 1st trying to grow the business but i soon realised i was making peanuts


getting handed poorly prepped bathrooms and an acumuation of add ons soon make your money dissapear

this is how i delt with it and maybe you can too.....i went to pick up a cheque for my weekly job from them and simply asked for a chat,,sat down and voiced my point of veiw that small tricky bathrooms with lots of cuts/borders etc i cant do on a sq meterage price so we came to an agreement that on larger jobs ill do a sq meter price and any small/or nat stone or porc jobs i get day rates,if this guy values you he will listen to you. your not going to try and tell me in a house of that calibre with the stone wetrooms you have been doing that hes making little money,i dont beleive that for 1 second mate. and neither shouild you,,play your cards is my advice

 

[mikethetile]

you need to have a chat about prices with your plumber

things are hard at the moment so dont shoot yourself in the foot and lose your main work

but he needs to know your rates for each type and size of tile, how much extra for cutting etc before he prices the job

your simply not charging enough for the time and care you are putting in on this

the other thing he needs to understand is that you need to keep your other customers happy too ar you will lose them

and whats this about lumpy bonding, if hes expecting you to tile onto bonding hes clueless and you need to walk before your reputation goes down the pan

 

[doug boardley]

sorry, but absolutely no one would tell me that I'm not able to take my kids on holiday:incazzato:

 

[hillhead]

I don't get them rates but the N Ireland rates are crap anyway!
You need more out there Graham,If your doing a great job he should be willing to up the money,is he winning the work because of your rates or is he creaming off you??

 

[Dan]

Totally agree mate (I have no kids, still a sucker for a bit of skiing or a festival or two though!)

 

[mikethetile]

he sounds a bit of a bully to me

 

[Graham Bright]

Where he moves pipes he fills those gaps with bonding. I have told him that bonding is not strong enough but its only normally about half a m2 around water pipes etc.

I have also had a coupld of jobs where the client has painted walls and I have had to spend ages either removing it or scoring the walls.

 

[Scott]

I havent had time t read all the responses but heres mine.

Finish what you started and crack on with your own work. Then tel him your new rate, after all your that much more experienced now and can demand more money. He clearly hasnt got anyone else and from the sounds of it these are top dollar jobs he is doing so the price he has on these could be huge. He is obviously happy with your work if not the speed.

At the end of the day he is probably making more per metre than you are.

 

[Pebbs]

Graham,

Like Dan, I read what you wrote a few times over, to put everything in order before I say anything.

Ok here goes....

Firstly I dont believe he should be saying anything to you about the speed that you work as you are being paid for the m2 and your not on a day rate. Everyone works at diff rates, I have one lad whose work is outstanding, but he gets gyp of the others because he takes his time about. What they dont realise is that this lad never gives me any problems with snagging works, and I have never had to pull him on anything hes ever done for me. Next time plumber boy says anything, one simple thing to say, quality not quantity.

Secondly stop worrying yourself about how long your taking to do the works. Your going to beat yourself up over doing something right? Push that thought right out of your mind.

Now Im going to tackle the money.... I was shocked to see the rate hes paying you, and horrified when I read that he makes you wait for him to get paid. Sorry but this is a no no. Plumber boy should make arrangements that his guys get paid every two weeks. I would never ever dream of making anyone of my lads wait till I get paid. I work to a tight budget, and my priority is that all my lads get paid fortnightly. Even if that means I pay myself late that particular month, they get paid without question. I would never dream of pocketing the money of the last job and make them wait.

I really feel you should speak with him tomorrow, go down the cafe for a cuppa, and explain that firstly, the work recently has been a lot more complicated than you anticipated, and for all the extra cutting etc, you should be getting a much better rate than he is paying right now. You seriously think plumber boy is charging the client the same for ceramics as marble and stone....I think not! If hes underpriced the job, how is that your problem? he submitted the price to the client, if he messed up, let him take the knock not expect his team to. If he doesnt see it your way and stands his ground, then you tell him that you will finish of the works in the room your working in and will leave on Friday as you dont want to fall out about it. And for gawds sake make sure you tell him you want your money on Friday as fair is fair. Be make sure to tell him though you dont want to go elsewhere for work, but you cant work for these rates.

I just read your post again, and Im a bit fuming now....how dare he tell you that you cant have time of to spend them with your kids...the selfish piece of work. Go let him sulk, he should have made arrangements for cover.

Keep a cool head, and stand your ground, and dont be bullied.

Good luck hun, and let us know how you get on

Lynn

 

[Andy Allen]

can you not quote each job you do for him.

you look at the job tell him how much you want to do it, he adds on 10% or what ever for himself, submits the quote to the customer if he gets the job everyones happy.

personally i dont work for plumbers i work with plumbers, they quote there side of the work to the client and i quote my side of the work to the client if the quotes are excepted then me and the plumber will work the job in together, clients are happy because they have a skilled plumber, a skilled tiler and we allso have a plasterer, and electricain we can call on when needed.

and most importantly when our side of the job is finished the client pays us direct.

 

[Graham Bright]

Guys, these have been great responses and I really appreciate it.

I am going to sit down with him tomorrow, explain my position. Explain I will honour my price and time for the room I have yet to do then tell him things need to be different going forward. I will calculate a pricing structure before hand and also request that I see each job before accepting it. I will also suggest day rates again and a better way of getting paid.

I will let you know how i get on.

Thanks again. Really great.

 

[Richard Edwards]

Read most but not all of the posts as there is a lot to take in.

This in summary, is what I would do. Talk to him - your plumber who is your client afterall. Tell him that in order to move forward, agree a price per job. That way he knows what he will be charged by you, and when you have finished the job, he gets your invoice and terms of payment is agreed.

Tell him the standard of his prep work required otherwise, reject it and tell him to put it right.

Finally, tel him a month or so in advance, when you are planning a few days off.

Then start working hard to spread your work around and do not become exposed to this large client. if he goes bang, your exposed - I would aim to do not more than 20% on turnover with one trade client.

In haste

Richard

 

[lcjohno]

Some good advice above, i would just sit down with him and explain that stone jobs etc cost more. If he knows and really likes what your doing he'll just add it on to his price so he can pay you more.
Dont just walk away from the work he's giving you until you have talked, you just both need to be singing from the same hymn sheet.

I do alot of work for a kitchen company and the guy knows that if its a natural stone job it needs pricing direct with me, or if its over a certain m2 there may be more costs. I do get the odd job which takes me a bit to long and i prob lose out on a bit. I dont mean lose money but might not get what i want, but generally i make enough so in my eyes its swings and round abouts. If i added up a years worth of work from him and the days its taken its well worth it.

Good luck sorting it out.