Are my expectations too high?

[DHTiling]

It is as you say Dean .. could have sworn it said 3mm lol lol .. just checked.. sorry for confusion.

 

[Colour Republic]

Is this not the second time recently that the 3mm over 2 meter rule has been taken out of context and applied to lippage:mad2::mad2:

 

[beanz]

Surprising end result!?! I'm wondering if this could be slumping in the adhesive? The amount of time taken would suggest to me that he tried to get it perfect. I've had it before, when you leave a job and it looks absolutely perfect, come in the next day and a tile or two have moved... Admittedly, this would be an extreme case!

 

[The D]

Mmmmmm why are the TTA saying the tolerance for a lip is 3mm when it is 1mm????? Did you take the name of the person that gave you the advice ?

 

[Geronimo]

this is incorrect i think as this is BS 5385 7.1.9.2 Across joints
There should be no appreciable difference in level across joints
(commonly called “lipping”) and the maximum deviation between
tile surfaces either side of a joint, including movement joints, should
be as follows.
a) Joints less than 6 mm wide, 1 mm.
b) Joints 6 mm or more wide, 2 mm.

The above is correct across joints, this is where I got confused and please don't be offended by my understanding. What TTA are referring to here is tolerance allowed as you look down on the tile. Therefore if the joint is less than 6mm the maximum deviation in alignment as you look down on the tile is 1mm. Effectively if you had just laid the tile so it was still moveable, you could actually put your hand on it and twist it 1mm out of line and this would be within tolerance. This has nothing to do with the surface height of the tile against another tile. Believe me the amount of time I have spent on this is unbelieveable, even looking at regulations from the US and Australia for comparison.

The Australians have the best way of gauging lippage, they advise that by using a straight metal edge ruler from one tile to the next or protruding tile, if it allows a 2mmdrill bit to pass under it on the adjoining tile, this would constitute a rectifable defect. If the drill won’t pass under the ruler, the work is within tolerance.

 

[Colour Republic]

What you describe (i.e the tile being out of alignment when viewed from above) is not referred to as 'lipping'. Lipping is clearly mentioned above, lipping is when a tile is out of plane/level with the adjoining tile, not when it is out of alignment.

it sounds to me as if you've been fobbed off

 

[Geronimo]

Yes I understand that but when measuring lippage many people are referring to the tolerances below:

Variation across Joints:
±1mm for joints less than 6mm wide
±2mm for joint 6mm or more wide

Rather than:

Flatness and variation from plumb:
± 3mm under a 2m straightedge.

Diagram attached of my interpretation of the TTA tolerances........

 

[Colour Republic]

Yes I understand that but when measuring lippage many people are referring to the tolerances below:

Variation across Joints:
±1mm for joints less than 6mm wide
±2mm for joint 6mm or more wide

Rather than:

Flatness and variation from plumb:
± 3mm under a 2m straightedge.

Diagram attached of my interpretation of the TTA tolerances........

That's because this
Variation across Joints:±1mm for joints less than 6mm wide±2mm for joint 6mm or more wide

Refers to lippage regarding 2 adjoining tiles


-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Rather than:

Flatness and variation from plumb:± 3mm under a 2m straightedge.

And this refers to flatness or deviation over a 2 meter span.

So when tilers here refer to lippage and acceptable British standards, they are correctly referring to the first part and not the second part.BTW it is not TTA's tolerances as you mention, it is British standards tolerances. Which whilst not a 'law', it is a recommendation which is often used as a bench mark and referred to when taken to court. If the tiles are bowed or warped then those tolerances may not be possible to keep withinand as such the tiler couldn't expect to be held liable for that but he should still take every reasonable care to produce an acceptable standard of workmanship.

If the tiles are warped then he should really have advised you of the pitfalls especially seeing as this was the second time around.

Have you got any spare tiles? Could you take a picture of 2 tiles placed face to face and photograph each corner.

 

[stephenoneill]

HE WASNT ON THE BALL THAT DAY.GROUTING IS VERY SHALLOW COUPLED WITH A MEDIOCRE POSE GIVES IT AN IMPRESSION THAT ITS WORSE THAN IT LOOKS/IF THAT MAKES SENSE. CHANGE THE TILES WITH LIPPAGE AND regrout

 

[The D]

this is incorrect i think as this is BS 5385 7.1.9.2 Across joints
There should be no appreciable difference in level across joints
(commonly called “lipping”) and the maximum deviation between
tile surfaces either side of a joint, including movement joints, should
be as follows.
a) Joints less than 6 mm wide, 1 mm.
b) Joints 6 mm or more wide, 2 mm.

The above is correct across joints, this is where I got confused and please don't be offended by my understanding. What TTA are referring to here is tolerance allowed as you look down on the tile. Therefore if the joint is less than 6mm the maximum deviation in alignment as you look down on the tile is 1mm. Effectively if you had just laid the tile so it was still moveable, you could actually put your hand on it and twist it 1mm out of line and this would be within tolerance. This has nothing to do with the surface height of the tile against another tile. Believe me the amount of time I have spent on this is unbelieveable, even looking at regulations from the US and Australia for comparison.

The Australians have the best way of gauging lippage, they advise that by using a straight metal edge ruler from one tile to the next or protruding tile, if it allows a 2mmdrill bit to pass under it on the adjoining tile, this would constitute a rectifable defect. If the drill won’t pass under the ruler, the work is within tolerance.

No No No! you are completely wrong the British standard 5385 7.1.9.2 clearly refers to lipping, level across the joint and tile surfaces either side of a joint. Non of this has anything to do with joint alignment it is the British standard for lippage. I will not take offence at being told I am wrong when I actually am

 

[Jeff the tiler]

Would agree with some previous comments, Grout is to low in the joints. As Bri has said check to see if the tiles are bowed by holding them back to back and see if there is any rocking in the tile. or face to face to see if there is any daylight showing through when holding them together or visa versa dependent on which way the bow is going (if they are bowed).

Definately give the tiler a call, he can go through this with you which I think would be a good starting point to then discuss and look at the alternatives.

- - - Updated - - -

Would agree with some previous comments, Grout is to low in the joints. As Bri has said check to see if the tiles are bowed by holding them back to back and see if there is any rocking in the tile. or face to face to see if there is any daylight showing through when holding them together or visa versa dependent on which way the bow is going (if they are bowed).

Definately give the tiler a call, he can go through this with you which I think would be a good starting point to then discuss and look at the alternatives.

 

[The Legend; Phil Hobson RIP]

No No No! you are completely wrong the British standard 5385 7.1.9.2 clearly refers to lipping, level across the joint and tile surfaces either side of a joint. Non of this has anything to do with joint alignment it is the British standard for lippage. I will not take offence at being told I am wrong when I actually am

I agree with Dean, but do think 2mm with a 6mm joint is to much, if the tiles are flat I would expect to get them lip free. That is why we are tilers imo.:lol:

 

[The D]

I agree with Dean, but do think 2mm with a 6mm joint is to much, if the tiles are flat I would expect to get them lip free. That is why we are tilers imo.:lol:

Absolutely agree with you m8 2mm lip I would have been shot if I left that on a floor.
IMHO 0.5 mm should be max and if you have that you should be ashamed of your self.
Where have all the men gone?

 

[Geronimo]

I would be most grateful if someone in the profession would confirm these tolerances with the tta because this is what was confirmed to me as being correct. May be I am wrong but if anyone is local to Leicester let me know, a quote for rectification would be appreciated. Unfortunately the Tiler that did the work has left the trade :-(

 

[The D]

I would be most grateful if someone in the profession would confirm these tolerances with the tta because this is what was confirmed to me as being correct. May be I am wrong but if anyone is local to Leicester let me know, a quote for rectification would be appreciated. Unfortunately the Tiler that did the work has left the trade :-(

thank god

 

[charlie1]

Absolutely agree with you m8 2mm lip I would have been shot if I left that on a floor.
IMHO 0.5 mm should be max and if you have that you should be ashamed of your self.
Where have all the men gone?

agree, .5 mm can stick out like sore thumb especially on polished porcelain (IMO the most challenging tile)

 

[The Legend; Phil Hobson RIP]

I would be most grateful if someone in the profession would confirm these tolerances with the tta because this is what was confirmed to me as being correct. May be I am wrong but if anyone is local to Leicester let me know, a quote for rectification would be appreciated. Unfortunately the Tiler that did the work has left the trade :-(

I quote from a document published by The Tile Association, 2012 "TOLERANCES, Local variations in level for a nominally flat floor should be such that, when checked with a 2m straightedge, any gap under the straightedge, between points of contact, does not exceed 3mm,"

This refares to the substate flatness, nothing else.

From the same document, "There should be no appreciable difference in levels across joints and the maximum deviation between tile surfaces on either side of the joint should be:"

"For joints less than 6mm wide,1mm"

"For joints 6mm or wider,2mm"

The latter is the tolerance for lippage. Still to lenient imho, hope this clears things up.