Are short courses devaluing the trades.

[Gazzer]

Bobbynz can you please try and use Capitals ( when needed) and paragraphs. It makes it so much easier to read.
I have edited the above post.

 

[stephen street]

A view from outside the box.
The building trade/builders and suppliers have for years been debasing the trades.
Take the really obvious one, ********* ******* anyone seen him lately? I doubt it, he was confined to history by dot and dab/tap and joint. Yes you have probably twigged, his much cheeper and more readily available replacements all did suppliers 2/4 day courses. So you have a shortage of people able to perform the craft, because plasterers no longer got paid ,hence not passing on their skills. The practise of builders to offer all their work to a one man band for him to find other subbies to keep the prices down. Has probably debased the tilling game more than any. The guy has not got a clue about pricing (nor do the builders want him to) so he accepts a flat covering X per mtr.

 

[The D]

A view from outside the box.
The building trade/builders and suppliers have for years been debasing the trades.
Take the really obvious one, ****** *******anyone seen him lately? I doubt it, he was confined to history by dot and dab/tap and joint. Yes you have probably twigged, his much cheeper and more readily available replacements all did suppliers 2/4 day courses. So you have a shortage of people able to perform the craft, because plasterers no longer got paid ,hence not passing on their skills. The practise of builders to offer all their work to a one man band for him to find other subbies to keep the prices down. Has probably debased the tilling game more than any. The guy has not got a clue about pricing (nor do the builders want him to) so he accepts a flat covering X per mtr.

I'm not sure i agree 100 percent. I do see your point but as with all things people will search for cheaper options but the change in the materials used does not mean we lose master trades men it just means we all have to keep learning.

 

[DHTiling]

A view from outside the box.
The building trade/builders and suppliers have for years been debasing the trades.
Take the really obvious one, ********* ******* anyone seen him lately? I doubt it, he was confined to history by dot and dab/tap and joint. Yes you have probably twigged, his much cheeper and more readily available replacements all did suppliers 2/4 day courses. So you have a shortage of people able to perform the craft, because plasterers no longer got paid ,hence not passing on their skills. The practise of builders to offer all their work to a one man band for him to find other subbies to keep the prices down. Has probably debased the tilling game more than any. The guy has not got a clue about pricing (nor do the builders want him to) so he accepts a flat covering X per mtr.

As i said in the OP of this thread, please do not mention comp names.. this is purely opinions and not slandering a company or companies.. hope that helps..

 

[Colour Republic]

I think you misunderstood Dave. I think he means a 'Master' plasterer. As in a Master at his trade. Then says the use of plasterboard dot and dabbed then jointed requires less skill. At least that's the way I read it

 

[DHTiling]

Ahh.. i do remember a training comp, same name..

 

[andy8758]

If you take a really open mind on this topic - it matters not how and where you trained. All the training gives you is a basic knowledge of the trade, and an opportunity to try out tiling techniques in a "safe" learning environment. Anyone who goes on any course - whether a 2 week "short" course or a 2 year "long" college course who believes that they are an expert tiler when they have completed the course is a deluded fool.

No matter what training you get, your experience necessary to become an expert tiler can only come from experience of working on real jobs in the real world.

I can understand many tilers who took the "long" training route feeling that was the best way. But I would point out that it is next to impossible for anyone over 20 to get a "long" training course. Neither can a person supporting a home and family afford to "retrain" employed on a £100 (if you are lucky) a week apprenticeship.

So in terms of what they offer - the short course training colleges offer many mature adults like myself, the opportunity to retrain in a new career. Their promises of experience, skills and qualifications have to be taken for what they are - marketing ploys to sell their product. When you finish the course - what the individual does with the skill is down to them. Many who expect an easy career are quickly disappointed, dispirited, and struggle to earn a living.

For myself, I shifted into tiling from a crashing property market, with some skills, but not enough to make a decent living. Six weeks traing was spaced over 6 months working and I am now gradually starting to build up a business after 2 years. Even now it is a roller coaster with some good months and some terrible. But the look on the face of this weeks customer (travertine walls and floor in a walk in shower room) who described the work as "perfect" made up for the fact it took me 3 days to do what the more experienced might do in 8 hours!

So why change to tiling? Cos I love it.

 

[doug boardley]

it's all a bit like driving really, you ain't gonna be Jenson Button just because you've passed your driving test

 

[Yorkshire Tiling Services]

A short term course will only provide a BASIC introduction to the wonderful world of tiling.
Anyone who thinks that it will provide a immediate route into the tiling trade are being hoodwinked by the misrepresentation that some of the training courses are selling.
As an Established Tiler I'am more than happy to discuss all aspects of my trade with DIY'er, novice, or just interested, in order that the job is done correctly - and that's why I'am pleased to have found Tilers Forum.
A good training course will not devalue the tiling trade, but the inadequate trainees who assume it's easy will only provide a sub standard level of workmanship - often attempting work that is above their capabilities - and leaving our industry with a devalued reputation.

I agree generally, but for some it can lead into a career... after my 3 day course I dis a few jobs at home and for friends and family, then a few for my mate.... but from day one I was a self employed tiler, eight years on I still am.
However, looking back some of my first jobs were not that good. One of my first jobs was to tile my bathroom at home, at the time I thought it was ace, now I look at it and shudder... and am embarassed when poople come to house LOL
Is on the list for re - tiling soon, will post a few pics when I get time

 

[Time's Ran Out]

Yorkshire Tiling Services -
But that is exactly what I described - after a short course an inadequate trainee who thinks they are capable of producing a professional job (ie in charging for their services) - are leaving our industry with a devalued reputation. With experience the standard improves but what about all the rubbish that is left in the interim.

 

[stephen street]

HI Denotile(and anyone else reading this!)
The cheaper option is probably the prime motivator,but it it has created more problems along the way. You say "we have to keep learning". Well I'm sure that is going to be true when the refurbishments of the buildings put up in the last ten years or so start in earnest. In fact most tilers will need a good plastering course to enable then to get to put up any metres.The cheaper option has left a refit of a bathroom or kitchen, a hack back to basics, rip it out and start again. (have you ever tried to remove tiles from unfinished plasterboard fixed in say P9?) I was with a kitchen company,doing a showroom. The only spare pair of hands, when one of the fitters called in with a problem. In doing the rip out he'd managed to remove 60/70% of the plaster board walls. Muggins sent out to Dot and Dab the whole kitchen.(Some of the plastering skills do come in handy.) Perhaps it may be a bit premature for some tilers think poorly of "courses",you may have to go on one yourself to do the work once done by the plasterer.
Tongue in cheek, Steve.

 

[The Legend; Phil Hobson RIP]

Most time served tilers can plaster, render, screed, and by screed I mean sand and cement, not slc. It was how it was back in the day all part of the tilers job. No need for a plastering course for me.

 

[White Room]

I know a couple of 30 year tilers who can't plaster to save there lives or refuse to...:smilewinkgrin:

 

[The D]

This tread has been on my mind lately and the fact that some of the training company's that offered NVQ are now under investigation for fraud.:yikes: This is a bad situation as the lads that have an NVQ but do not deserve it are on site and tilers that are time served but have no formal qualifications are sitting at home or confined to domestic work. so in that respect yes the short courses are defiantly devaluing the trades.

 

[White Room]

This tread has been on my mind lately and the fact that some of the training company's that offered NVQ are now under investigation for fraud.:yikes: This is a bad situation as the lads that have an NVQ but do not deserve it are on site and tilers that are time served but have no formal qualifications are sitting at home or confined to domestic work. so in that respect yes the short courses are defiantly devaluing the trades.

I did'nt pay for mine and to be honest really was'nt bothered, it seemed quite a push to get people on it...goverment were funding it at the time.

 

[Colour Republic]

I know a couple of 30 year tilers who can't plaster to save there lives or refuse to...:smilewinkgrin:

I know a couple of 30 year plasterers who can't plaster to save there lives or refuse to...:lol:

 

[Mazbert]

I did a short courses, 5 years ago, quickly to realise I knew little. The courses teaches you in an environment where aside from a wonky bath it is all simple. I struggled when I started out, but stuck with it. Being a woman you are expected to fail, but thankfully my persistence and end result speaks for themselves. I am shocked a little right now, as I took a year off following breaking my leg, and now I am discovering that when I am going for quotes I am loosing out to people willing to work for next to nothing. I am getting jobs more word of mouth where people are happy to pay knowing they will get the desired outcome. I am begining to wonder how much costs per sq mtr have changed in the past 12 months?

 

[Time's Ran Out]

I did a short courses, 5 years ago, quickly to realise I knew little. The courses teaches you in an environment where aside from a wonky bath it is all simple. I struggled when I started out, but stuck with it. Being a woman you are expected to fail, but thankfully my persistence and end result speaks for themselves. I am shocked a little right now, as I took a year off following breaking my leg, and now I am discovering that when I am going for quotes I am loosing out to people willing to work for next to nothing. I am getting jobs more word of mouth where people are happy to pay knowing they will get the desired outcome. I am begining to wonder how much costs per sq mtr have changed in the past 12 months?

:welcome: I mentioned this a while ago, that in fact you may have an advantage with a unique selling point and a market that may prefer your gender. Your history may indeed be an example of how the initial training is only an introduction and that you will not have the skills/confidence at the outset to compete with more established tradespeople.
At the present time there are many working for a wage, but this is not unusual when the building industry is quiet and I find that the professional approach - along with a competitive price - will win the day.
Good luck with your tiling - and don't go breaking another leg.

 

[stephen street]

Hj Dave,
As long as it is only slander I'd be"up for",then I could cope with that. Truth is I haven't spoken to anyone about "Master Plasterers" in a long time, Site workers don't remember their demise.
Barrack room Lawyer(one for the ex servicemen.)Steve.

 

[Dan]

I think there is a market for them to be honest. I know of some tilers that have gone through college who are slow, okay at their job but nothing special. And I know some guys that have done a 4 week course and are about the same in skill level and experience.

I know of some colleges that fitted 1 square meter after 12 weeks of talking about fitting them. Then they'd strip it, and use the same tiles again and again and again to tile the same spot.

Before the short courses there wasn't really any other option. Go college when you could make it (and if you could afford to take days off in some other job) or just wing it and hope you get the advice from adhesive manufacturers and the likes.

I think BAL were the first main ones to do short courses and they were free at the time all day long. They gave you a BAL "Wall and Floor Tiler" certificate and you were on your way.

I think the courses have come a long way since then and providing you can do most of it in the training centre and then do some site visits, you can even get an NVW out of it quicker than you can a college.

So swings and roundabouts.

No tiler after doing a course, getting their NVQ, via whatever route, or going college, will be anything like what they will be once they've done some real world jobs.

And that's why a father can teach his son on the job with no grades involved but just a good rollocking when get bodges it here and there, can be a brilliant tiler after a couple of years. And he'd never need a certificate to prove anything and wouldn't entertain getting one in most cases I'd bet too.

As for the original question though, are they actually devaluing the industry/trade? Perhaps so - but really it's down to the trainee's being convinced that they can tile perfectly now when only attending a 4 week course or whatever. When in actual fact they've probably fitted about 50 meters of tile and they're yet to fit the thousands of meters you really need before you start boasting how well you tile. But the same effect comes from the colleges I'd have thought so perhaps not just down to the short courses.

I know good and bad tilers that are time served (just never done it right in the first place and are now well stuck in their bad ways), good and bad tilers from short courses, and good and bad tilers from colleges. The good ones are normally the ones that did it right from the start and just practised. The bad ones are usually the ones that did it wrong from the start and never bother to get the data sheets and technical advice and that sort of stuff that comes with this trade that is having new products introduced at least annually by adhesive, tool and tile manufacturers.

Just my £2.20. (Inflation - used to be 2p).

 

[bobbynz]

I know good and bad tilers that are time served (just never done it right in the first place and are now well stuck in their bad ways), good and bad tilers from short courses, and good and bad tilers from colleges. The good ones are normally the ones that did it right from the start and just practised. The bad ones are usually the ones that did it wrong from the start and never bother to get the data sheets and technical advice and that sort of stuff that comes with this trade that is having new products introduced at least annually by adhesive, tool and tile manufacturers.


I agree Dan, when i started with the old man, all he knew was sand and cement screed and wet lay. It was all we did for my early years but after a while the new thinsets became available along with the change in substrates. It changed everything and if you didn't keep up with the new product and techniques you wouldn't be as successful as those who did.
Next January I will be starting a job as company manager for a tiling company that prides itself on the fact that we continually investigate and research every aspect of the industry.By doing so our guys have the latest techniques, gear and the best product at their disposal.
Its no accident that we now hold a good portion of the high end work that is required in multi million dollar homes.
The quality of work that our guys put out reflect the experience, research and training we have acquired over the years.
None of our guys have ever completed a tiling course. They have gained all their skills on the job with an experienced tiler.
Today they work for us on a sub-contract basis to the Tiler who trained them.Why? because he started out and continues doing it the right way and taught them accordingly.So now they work for us because doing the job the right way has resulted in providing the type of work we get from the people who expect a high quality job done the right way.

Whew!!! i'm glad i got that out, sorry guys, its just that i see so much shoddy work from guys who haven't a clue and just dont want to start at the bottom and learn from the start :mad2:
You know lawyers make heaps of money i wonder if there's a 4 week course for that "...then i could give it a go and make as much as they do...":drool5:

 

[The D]

I think there is a market for them to be honest. I know of some tilers that have gone through college who are slow, okay at their job but nothing special. And I know some guys that have done a 4 week course and are about the same in skill level and experience.

I know of some colleges that fitted 1 square meter after 12 weeks of talking about fitting them. Then they'd strip it, and use the same tiles again and again and again to tile the same spot.

Before the short courses there wasn't really any other option. Go college when you could make it (and if you could afford to take days off in some other job) or just wing it and hope you get the advice from adhesive manufacturers and the likes.

I think BAL were the first main ones to do short courses and they were free at the time all day long. They gave you a BAL "Wall and Floor Tiler" certificate and you were on your way.

I think the courses have come a long way since then and providing you can do most of it in the training centre and then do some site visits, you can even get an NVW out of it quicker than you can a college.

So swings and roundabouts.

No tiler after doing a course, getting their NVQ, via whatever route, or going college, will be anything like what they will be once they've done some real world jobs.

And that's why a father can teach his son on the job with no grades involved but just a good rollocking when get bodges it here and there, can be a brilliant tiler after a couple of years. And he'd never need a certificate to prove anything and wouldn't entertain getting one in most cases I'd bet too.

As for the original question though, are they actually devaluing the industry/trade? Perhaps so - but really it's down to the trainee's being convinced that they can tile perfectly now when only attending a 4 week course or whatever. When in actual fact they've probably fitted about 50 meters of tile and they're yet to fit the thousands of meters you really need before you start boasting how well you tile. But the same effect comes from the colleges I'd have thought so perhaps not just down to the short courses.

I know good and bad tilers that are time served (just never done it right in the first place and are now well stuck in their bad ways), good and bad tilers from short courses, and good and bad tilers from colleges. The good ones are normally the ones that did it right from the start and just practised. The bad ones are usually the ones that did it wrong from the start and never bother to get the data sheets and technical advice and that sort of stuff that comes with this trade that is having new products introduced at least annually by adhesive, tool and tile manufacturers.

Just my £2.20. (Inflation - used to be 2p).

Sorry m8 but I just can’t agree with you on this one. Firstly in a collage unless you have a placement with a firm or you are set up as self employed and have work coming in you will be on an ICA not an NVQ. You only do an NVQ if you are working in the industry. If the only time you do any tiling is in a training centre then it has to be ICA (diploma) and you will be on the ICA for 2 years. In that 2 years you will be taught about all the different elements that make up the ICA. You will practise the things you have learned in the work shop and you will be assessed on your practical work.
In addition to this you will also do several job knowledge papers throughout the 2 years and end with a job knowledge exam and a health and safety exam.
If you have been sighed off on all your practical work and you have passed your job knowledge exam and the health and safety exam you will receive your ICA(diploma).

Now if you are fortunate enough to have a placement or you are already set up in business then you will be on an NVQ and that NVQ will take 2 years. You will receive some training on the practical work but most of it will be assessments of the work you are doing out on site. You will have a trusted person out on site that will sign to say you have experience of each element that makes up the NVQ there may be a need for the assessor to do some site visits. You will have to complete a phase test and you will also sit a job knowledge exam and the health and safety exam.

The whole NVQ process is to establish competence in the trade you are in. If you can prove competence the process can be completed quite quickly, but if you are a novice proving competence can be a long procedure as the assessor my need to see you perform the task several times before he can sign you off on it. Just doing the task once doesn’t prove competence no mater how good the first attempt is.


Quote :No tiler after doing a course, getting their NVQ, via whatever route, or going college, will be anything like what they will be once they've done some real world jobs.

You can’t have a legitimate NVQ until you have done some real world jobs that is the whole point.

All this going from novice to NVQ in 20 weeks or less is a load of tosh IMO and is strictly for the dubious training providers.

 

[DHTiling]

To add to above... don't be fooled if you are told that they/them can give you an NVQ quicker.. there are NO short cuts, if they say they are then if MIGHT be dodgy.. Some providers are being investigated over such matters..

 

[stephen street]

Hi all,<br>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Any one heard the statement "be careful of what you wish for" ?<br>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;A good few years ago,I was being driven to a job by Mr Bob Howard (then contracts manager with TTC) as my car was off the road.(looking back I should have twig what sort of job it was to be,but that's another story.)<br>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;During the journey the topic of conversation got round (no not chicken tiles.) "A card detailing the skills of the holder"<br>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; (1)person can trowel the wall.<br>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; (2) person can cut tiles.<br>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; (3)person can grout a wall.<br>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; (4) and on,and on.<br>&nbsp;The logic behind this being the contractor/builder would,<br>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; (a)know what the person they were to employ could do.<br>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; (b)be able to do away with induction courses.<br>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; (c) and whatever else.<br>Does this sound familiar? If not try getting "on site" with out the cscs card.<br>You will need to have a qualification to get the card. &nbsp;Detailing your skills.<br>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; So along came an industry to give the prospective employees a job.<br>&nbsp; Yes short courses,now its even more confusing.<br>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;Now everyone's got a gong,But with what appears to be no more skills than before! &nbsp;It just makes a lot of people spend a lot of money (the great tax go round)to obtain the right to work.<br>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; BE CAREFUL OF WHAT YOU WISH FOR. &nbsp;FOR IN TRUTH, IT MAY NOT BE WHAT YOU ACTUALLY WANT. <br>&nbsp; Steve with hindsight.&nbsp;

 

[Dan]

Sorry m8 but I just can’t agree with you on this one. Firstly in a collage unless you have a placement with a firm or you are set up as self employed and have work coming in you will be on an ICA not an NVQ. You only do an NVQ if you are working in the industry. If the only time you do any tiling is in a training centre then it has to be ICA (diploma) and you will be on the ICA for 2 years. In that 2 years you will be taught about all the different elements that make up the ICA. You will practise the things you have learned in the work shop and you will be assessed on your practical work.
In addition to this you will also do several job knowledge papers throughout the 2 years and end with a job knowledge exam and a health and safety exam.
If you have been sighed off on all your practical work and you have passed your job knowledge exam and the health and safety exam you will receive your ICA(diploma).

Now if you are fortunate enough to have a placement or you are already set up in business then you will be on an NVQ and that NVQ will take 2 years. You will receive some training on the practical work but most of it will be assessments of the work you are doing out on site. You will have a trusted person out on site that will sign to say you have experience of each element that makes up the NVQ there may be a need for the assessor to do some site visits. You will have to complete a phase test and you will also sit a job knowledge exam and the health and safety exam.

The whole NVQ process is to establish competence in the trade you are in. If you can prove competence the process can be completed quite quickly, but if you are a novice proving competence can be a long procedure as the assessor my need to see you perform the task several times before he can sign you off on it. Just doing the task once doesn’t prove competence no mater how good the first attempt is.


Quote :No tiler after doing a course, getting their NVQ, via whatever route, or going college, will be anything like what they will be once they've done some real world jobs.

You can’t have a legitimate NVQ until you have done some real world jobs that is the whole point.

All this going from novice to NVQ in 20 weeks or less is a load of tosh IMO and is strictly for the dubious training providers.

I must be honest mate you've got me there. I never have fully understood the NVQ thing and came out of providing training before training centre's were pushing for this in a bigger way.

I think my defending of there being a market for small training providers still stands. It's nice for a bloke (or lass) to have that 'father teaching you' feel whether grades are involved or not. Not everybody has a dad who can teach you their skills.

My understanding was college's, or your old man. Then the training centre's came along. And I support many of 'em.

I don't like and never have liked any training centre that quotes what you can (probably can't) earn and sells their courses based on that and that alone. That devalues the trade and the training centre too IMO.

But these days we have colleges, training centre's, and dads all getting you trained. Though any route I'm sure can lead to people getting a NVQ/SVQ at the end of it. But of course as we both said, it doesn't start to teach you a sausage in the real world until you've carried out work on your own with your own customers. And perhaps even dealt with a complaint professionally and all that sort of jazz.

And as you pointed out, you need to do real word jobs to be assessed.

Construction Skills College Limited (the private training centre in Stoke, not to be confused with ConstructionSkills in general) has a service whereby they have bought an old hotel type large house thing. And they use that in 'real world' circumstances and refit the whole thing out regularly, then strip it all out again, and they have assessors that go there and verify trainee's work. It's a faster route for many as it can get your your NVQ (in many trades not just tiling) quite quickly compared to trying to get placements and the likes. But I don't fully understand the ins and outs of that to be honest.

My point still stands though I think. Some devalue the industry. Some don't. In general just down to the fact more people are getting into the trade alone would mean more competition which could be good for customers providing the guys are trained in some way when compared to the good old days when a builder would assume he can tile, get a job, charge a lot for it, and it would balls up and he'd perhaps wing it. I think there's a lot less of that now. And having forums online (not just ours but all) has helped a little with that as there are now places you can go day or night to ask a question without sounding daft or spending hours on a phone or something.

I think the fact a person can tile with no grades perhaps needs looking at seriously by the powers to be (TTA? - The Government? - Somebody else?) but then there are the likes of the guys who can tile to the highest of standards who don't have any grades, so they'd need to have the grandfather rights granted and grades given after perhaps just a few assessments of their work (perhaps even FOC as they do deserve it for doing so well without grades IMO).

Although the same discussion goes on on our plumbing and electrical forums even though those trades are heavily regulated and nobody can touch Gas or Electrics without the right grades. The dodgy training centres still exist that employ car salesmen as their salesmen and trainers who perhaps haven't done so much real world work themselves. So perhaps it's not a solid fix but certainly a step in the right direction.

People need to keep reporting their bad experiences with training providers to the governing bodies and trading standards and the likes (even watchdog in many cases I've found). But people do need a few options or routes to go down to train as just colleges like some time ago just wasn't practical and perhaps the reason so many people never trained at all - and that can devalue a trade.

​Just another £2.20 there