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Discuss Are short courses devaluing the trades. in the UK Tiling Forum area at TilersForums.com.
I'm not sure i agree 100 percent. I do see your point but as with all things people will search for cheaper options but the change in the materials used does not mean we lose master trades men it just means we all have to keep learning.A view from outside the box.
The building trade/builders and suppliers have for years been debasing the trades.
Take the really obvious one, ****** *******anyone seen him lately? I doubt it, he was confined to history by dot and dab/tap and joint. Yes you have probably twigged, his much cheeper and more readily available replacements all did suppliers 2/4 day courses. So you have a shortage of people able to perform the craft, because plasterers no longer got paid ,hence not passing on their skills. The practise of builders to offer all their work to a one man band for him to find other subbies to keep the prices down. Has probably debased the tilling game more than any. The guy has not got a clue about pricing (nor do the builders want him to) so he accepts a flat covering X per mtr.
A view from outside the box.
The building trade/builders and suppliers have for years been debasing the trades.
Take the really obvious one, ********* ******* anyone seen him lately? I doubt it, he was confined to history by dot and dab/tap and joint. Yes you have probably twigged, his much cheeper and more readily available replacements all did suppliers 2/4 day courses. So you have a shortage of people able to perform the craft, because plasterers no longer got paid ,hence not passing on their skills. The practise of builders to offer all their work to a one man band for him to find other subbies to keep the prices down. Has probably debased the tilling game more than any. The guy has not got a clue about pricing (nor do the builders want him to) so he accepts a flat covering X per mtr.
A short term course will only provide a BASIC introduction to the wonderful world of tiling.
Anyone who thinks that it will provide a immediate route into the tiling trade are being hoodwinked by the misrepresentation that some of the training courses are selling.
As an Established Tiler I'am more than happy to discuss all aspects of my trade with DIY'er, novice, or just interested, in order that the job is done correctly - and that's why I'am pleased to have found Tilers Forum.
A good training course will not devalue the tiling trade, but the inadequate trainees who assume it's easy will only provide a sub standard level of workmanship - often attempting work that is above their capabilities - and leaving our industry with a devalued reputation.
This tread has been on my mind lately and the fact that some of the training company's that offered NVQ are now under investigation for fraud.:yikes: This is a bad situation as the lads that have an NVQ but do not deserve it are on site and tilers that are time served but have no formal qualifications are sitting at home or confined to domestic work. so in that respect yes the short courses are defiantly devaluing the trades.
I know a couple of 30 year tilers who can't plaster to save there lives or refuse to...:smilewinkgrin:
I did a short courses, 5 years ago, quickly to realise I knew little. The courses teaches you in an environment where aside from a wonky bath it is all simple. I struggled when I started out, but stuck with it. Being a woman you are expected to fail, but thankfully my persistence and end result speaks for themselves. I am shocked a little right now, as I took a year off following breaking my leg, and now I am discovering that when I am going for quotes I am loosing out to people willing to work for next to nothing. I am getting jobs more word of mouth where people are happy to pay knowing they will get the desired outcome. I am begining to wonder how much costs per sq mtr have changed in the past 12 months?
Sorry m8 but I just can’t agree with you on this one. Firstly in a collage unless you have a placement with a firm or you are set up as self employed and have work coming in you will be on an ICA not an NVQ. You only do an NVQ if you are working in the industry. If the only time you do any tiling is in a training centre then it has to be ICA (diploma) and you will be on the ICA for 2 years. In that 2 years you will be taught about all the different elements that make up the ICA. You will practise the things you have learned in the work shop and you will be assessed on your practical work.I think there is a market for them to be honest. I know of some tilers that have gone through college who are slow, okay at their job but nothing special. And I know some guys that have done a 4 week course and are about the same in skill level and experience.
I know of some colleges that fitted 1 square meter after 12 weeks of talking about fitting them. Then they'd strip it, and use the same tiles again and again and again to tile the same spot.
Before the short courses there wasn't really any other option. Go college when you could make it (and if you could afford to take days off in some other job) or just wing it and hope you get the advice from adhesive manufacturers and the likes.
I think BAL were the first main ones to do short courses and they were free at the time all day long. They gave you a BAL "Wall and Floor Tiler" certificate and you were on your way.
I think the courses have come a long way since then and providing you can do most of it in the training centre and then do some site visits, you can even get an NVW out of it quicker than you can a college.
So swings and roundabouts.
No tiler after doing a course, getting their NVQ, via whatever route, or going college, will be anything like what they will be once they've done some real world jobs.
And that's why a father can teach his son on the job with no grades involved but just a good rollocking when get bodges it here and there, can be a brilliant tiler after a couple of years. And he'd never need a certificate to prove anything and wouldn't entertain getting one in most cases I'd bet too.
As for the original question though, are they actually devaluing the industry/trade? Perhaps so - but really it's down to the trainee's being convinced that they can tile perfectly now when only attending a 4 week course or whatever. When in actual fact they've probably fitted about 50 meters of tile and they're yet to fit the thousands of meters you really need before you start boasting how well you tile. But the same effect comes from the colleges I'd have thought so perhaps not just down to the short courses.
I know good and bad tilers that are time served (just never done it right in the first place and are now well stuck in their bad ways), good and bad tilers from short courses, and good and bad tilers from colleges. The good ones are normally the ones that did it right from the start and just practised. The bad ones are usually the ones that did it wrong from the start and never bother to get the data sheets and technical advice and that sort of stuff that comes with this trade that is having new products introduced at least annually by adhesive, tool and tile manufacturers.
Just my £2.20. (Inflation - used to be 2p).
Sorry m8 but I just can’t agree with you on this one. Firstly in a collage unless you have a placement with a firm or you are set up as self employed and have work coming in you will be on an ICA not an NVQ. You only do an NVQ if you are working in the industry. If the only time you do any tiling is in a training centre then it has to be ICA (diploma) and you will be on the ICA for 2 years. In that 2 years you will be taught about all the different elements that make up the ICA. You will practise the things you have learned in the work shop and you will be assessed on your practical work.
In addition to this you will also do several job knowledge papers throughout the 2 years and end with a job knowledge exam and a health and safety exam.
If you have been sighed off on all your practical work and you have passed your job knowledge exam and the health and safety exam you will receive your ICA(diploma).
Now if you are fortunate enough to have a placement or you are already set up in business then you will be on an NVQ and that NVQ will take 2 years. You will receive some training on the practical work but most of it will be assessments of the work you are doing out on site. You will have a trusted person out on site that will sign to say you have experience of each element that makes up the NVQ there may be a need for the assessor to do some site visits. You will have to complete a phase test and you will also sit a job knowledge exam and the health and safety exam.
The whole NVQ process is to establish competence in the trade you are in. If you can prove competence the process can be completed quite quickly, but if you are a novice proving competence can be a long procedure as the assessor my need to see you perform the task several times before he can sign you off on it. Just doing the task once doesn’t prove competence no mater how good the first attempt is.
Quote :No tiler after doing a course, getting their NVQ, via whatever route, or going college, will be anything like what they will be once they've done some real world jobs.
You can’t have a legitimate NVQ until you have done some real world jobs that is the whole point.
All this going from novice to NVQ in 20 weeks or less is a load of tosh IMO and is strictly for the dubious training providers.
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