Are short courses devaluing the trades.

[bobbynz]

I know good and bad tilers that are time served (just never done it right in the first place and are now well stuck in their bad ways), good and bad tilers from short courses, and good and bad tilers from colleges. The good ones are normally the ones that did it right from the start and just practised. The bad ones are usually the ones that did it wrong from the start and never bother to get the data sheets and technical advice and that sort of stuff that comes with this trade that is having new products introduced at least annually by adhesive, tool and tile manufacturers.


I agree Dan, when i started with the old man, all he knew was sand and cement screed and wet lay. It was all we did for my early years but after a while the new thinsets became available along with the change in substrates. It changed everything and if you didn't keep up with the new product and techniques you wouldn't be as successful as those who did.
Next January I will be starting a job as company manager for a tiling company that prides itself on the fact that we continually investigate and research every aspect of the industry.By doing so our guys have the latest techniques, gear and the best product at their disposal.
Its no accident that we now hold a good portion of the high end work that is required in multi million dollar homes.
The quality of work that our guys put out reflect the experience, research and training we have acquired over the years.
None of our guys have ever completed a tiling course. They have gained all their skills on the job with an experienced tiler.
Today they work for us on a sub-contract basis to the Tiler who trained them.Why? because he started out and continues doing it the right way and taught them accordingly.So now they work for us because doing the job the right way has resulted in providing the type of work we get from the people who expect a high quality job done the right way.

Whew!!! i'm glad i got that out, sorry guys, its just that i see so much shoddy work from guys who haven't a clue and just dont want to start at the bottom and learn from the start :mad2:
You know lawyers make heaps of money i wonder if there's a 4 week course for that "...then i could give it a go and make as much as they do...":drool5:

 

[The D]

I think there is a market for them to be honest. I know of some tilers that have gone through college who are slow, okay at their job but nothing special. And I know some guys that have done a 4 week course and are about the same in skill level and experience.

I know of some colleges that fitted 1 square meter after 12 weeks of talking about fitting them. Then they'd strip it, and use the same tiles again and again and again to tile the same spot.

Before the short courses there wasn't really any other option. Go college when you could make it (and if you could afford to take days off in some other job) or just wing it and hope you get the advice from adhesive manufacturers and the likes.

I think BAL were the first main ones to do short courses and they were free at the time all day long. They gave you a BAL "Wall and Floor Tiler" certificate and you were on your way.

I think the courses have come a long way since then and providing you can do most of it in the training centre and then do some site visits, you can even get an NVW out of it quicker than you can a college.

So swings and roundabouts.

No tiler after doing a course, getting their NVQ, via whatever route, or going college, will be anything like what they will be once they've done some real world jobs.

And that's why a father can teach his son on the job with no grades involved but just a good rollocking when get bodges it here and there, can be a brilliant tiler after a couple of years. And he'd never need a certificate to prove anything and wouldn't entertain getting one in most cases I'd bet too.

As for the original question though, are they actually devaluing the industry/trade? Perhaps so - but really it's down to the trainee's being convinced that they can tile perfectly now when only attending a 4 week course or whatever. When in actual fact they've probably fitted about 50 meters of tile and they're yet to fit the thousands of meters you really need before you start boasting how well you tile. But the same effect comes from the colleges I'd have thought so perhaps not just down to the short courses.

I know good and bad tilers that are time served (just never done it right in the first place and are now well stuck in their bad ways), good and bad tilers from short courses, and good and bad tilers from colleges. The good ones are normally the ones that did it right from the start and just practised. The bad ones are usually the ones that did it wrong from the start and never bother to get the data sheets and technical advice and that sort of stuff that comes with this trade that is having new products introduced at least annually by adhesive, tool and tile manufacturers.

Just my £2.20. (Inflation - used to be 2p).

Sorry m8 but I just can’t agree with you on this one. Firstly in a collage unless you have a placement with a firm or you are set up as self employed and have work coming in you will be on an ICA not an NVQ. You only do an NVQ if you are working in the industry. If the only time you do any tiling is in a training centre then it has to be ICA (diploma) and you will be on the ICA for 2 years. In that 2 years you will be taught about all the different elements that make up the ICA. You will practise the things you have learned in the work shop and you will be assessed on your practical work.
In addition to this you will also do several job knowledge papers throughout the 2 years and end with a job knowledge exam and a health and safety exam.
If you have been sighed off on all your practical work and you have passed your job knowledge exam and the health and safety exam you will receive your ICA(diploma).

Now if you are fortunate enough to have a placement or you are already set up in business then you will be on an NVQ and that NVQ will take 2 years. You will receive some training on the practical work but most of it will be assessments of the work you are doing out on site. You will have a trusted person out on site that will sign to say you have experience of each element that makes up the NVQ there may be a need for the assessor to do some site visits. You will have to complete a phase test and you will also sit a job knowledge exam and the health and safety exam.

The whole NVQ process is to establish competence in the trade you are in. If you can prove competence the process can be completed quite quickly, but if you are a novice proving competence can be a long procedure as the assessor my need to see you perform the task several times before he can sign you off on it. Just doing the task once doesn’t prove competence no mater how good the first attempt is.


Quote :No tiler after doing a course, getting their NVQ, via whatever route, or going college, will be anything like what they will be once they've done some real world jobs.

You can’t have a legitimate NVQ until you have done some real world jobs that is the whole point.

All this going from novice to NVQ in 20 weeks or less is a load of tosh IMO and is strictly for the dubious training providers.

 

[DHTiling]

To add to above... don't be fooled if you are told that they/them can give you an NVQ quicker.. there are NO short cuts, if they say they are then if MIGHT be dodgy.. Some providers are being investigated over such matters..

 

[stephen street]

Hi all,<br>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Any one heard the statement "be careful of what you wish for" ?<br>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;A good few years ago,I was being driven to a job by Mr Bob Howard (then contracts manager with TTC) as my car was off the road.(looking back I should have twig what sort of job it was to be,but that's another story.)<br>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;During the journey the topic of conversation got round (no not chicken tiles.) "A card detailing the skills of the holder"<br>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; (1)person can trowel the wall.<br>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; (2) person can cut tiles.<br>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; (3)person can grout a wall.<br>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; (4) and on,and on.<br>&nbsp;The logic behind this being the contractor/builder would,<br>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; (a)know what the person they were to employ could do.<br>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; (b)be able to do away with induction courses.<br>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; (c) and whatever else.<br>Does this sound familiar? If not try getting "on site" with out the cscs card.<br>You will need to have a qualification to get the card. &nbsp;Detailing your skills.<br>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; So along came an industry to give the prospective employees a job.<br>&nbsp; Yes short courses,now its even more confusing.<br>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;Now everyone's got a gong,But with what appears to be no more skills than before! &nbsp;It just makes a lot of people spend a lot of money (the great tax go round)to obtain the right to work.<br>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; BE CAREFUL OF WHAT YOU WISH FOR. &nbsp;FOR IN TRUTH, IT MAY NOT BE WHAT YOU ACTUALLY WANT. <br>&nbsp; Steve with hindsight.&nbsp;

 

[Dan]

Sorry m8 but I just can’t agree with you on this one. Firstly in a collage unless you have a placement with a firm or you are set up as self employed and have work coming in you will be on an ICA not an NVQ. You only do an NVQ if you are working in the industry. If the only time you do any tiling is in a training centre then it has to be ICA (diploma) and you will be on the ICA for 2 years. In that 2 years you will be taught about all the different elements that make up the ICA. You will practise the things you have learned in the work shop and you will be assessed on your practical work.
In addition to this you will also do several job knowledge papers throughout the 2 years and end with a job knowledge exam and a health and safety exam.
If you have been sighed off on all your practical work and you have passed your job knowledge exam and the health and safety exam you will receive your ICA(diploma).

Now if you are fortunate enough to have a placement or you are already set up in business then you will be on an NVQ and that NVQ will take 2 years. You will receive some training on the practical work but most of it will be assessments of the work you are doing out on site. You will have a trusted person out on site that will sign to say you have experience of each element that makes up the NVQ there may be a need for the assessor to do some site visits. You will have to complete a phase test and you will also sit a job knowledge exam and the health and safety exam.

The whole NVQ process is to establish competence in the trade you are in. If you can prove competence the process can be completed quite quickly, but if you are a novice proving competence can be a long procedure as the assessor my need to see you perform the task several times before he can sign you off on it. Just doing the task once doesn’t prove competence no mater how good the first attempt is.


Quote :No tiler after doing a course, getting their NVQ, via whatever route, or going college, will be anything like what they will be once they've done some real world jobs.

You can’t have a legitimate NVQ until you have done some real world jobs that is the whole point.

All this going from novice to NVQ in 20 weeks or less is a load of tosh IMO and is strictly for the dubious training providers.

I must be honest mate you've got me there. I never have fully understood the NVQ thing and came out of providing training before training centre's were pushing for this in a bigger way.

I think my defending of there being a market for small training providers still stands. It's nice for a bloke (or lass) to have that 'father teaching you' feel whether grades are involved or not. Not everybody has a dad who can teach you their skills.

My understanding was college's, or your old man. Then the training centre's came along. And I support many of 'em.

I don't like and never have liked any training centre that quotes what you can (probably can't) earn and sells their courses based on that and that alone. That devalues the trade and the training centre too IMO.

But these days we have colleges, training centre's, and dads all getting you trained. Though any route I'm sure can lead to people getting a NVQ/SVQ at the end of it. But of course as we both said, it doesn't start to teach you a sausage in the real world until you've carried out work on your own with your own customers. And perhaps even dealt with a complaint professionally and all that sort of jazz.

And as you pointed out, you need to do real word jobs to be assessed.

Construction Skills College Limited (the private training centre in Stoke, not to be confused with ConstructionSkills in general) has a service whereby they have bought an old hotel type large house thing. And they use that in 'real world' circumstances and refit the whole thing out regularly, then strip it all out again, and they have assessors that go there and verify trainee's work. It's a faster route for many as it can get your your NVQ (in many trades not just tiling) quite quickly compared to trying to get placements and the likes. But I don't fully understand the ins and outs of that to be honest.

My point still stands though I think. Some devalue the industry. Some don't. In general just down to the fact more people are getting into the trade alone would mean more competition which could be good for customers providing the guys are trained in some way when compared to the good old days when a builder would assume he can tile, get a job, charge a lot for it, and it would balls up and he'd perhaps wing it. I think there's a lot less of that now. And having forums online (not just ours but all) has helped a little with that as there are now places you can go day or night to ask a question without sounding daft or spending hours on a phone or something.

I think the fact a person can tile with no grades perhaps needs looking at seriously by the powers to be (TTA? - The Government? - Somebody else?) but then there are the likes of the guys who can tile to the highest of standards who don't have any grades, so they'd need to have the grandfather rights granted and grades given after perhaps just a few assessments of their work (perhaps even FOC as they do deserve it for doing so well without grades IMO).

Although the same discussion goes on on our plumbing and electrical forums even though those trades are heavily regulated and nobody can touch Gas or Electrics without the right grades. The dodgy training centres still exist that employ car salesmen as their salesmen and trainers who perhaps haven't done so much real world work themselves. So perhaps it's not a solid fix but certainly a step in the right direction.

People need to keep reporting their bad experiences with training providers to the governing bodies and trading standards and the likes (even watchdog in many cases I've found). But people do need a few options or routes to go down to train as just colleges like some time ago just wasn't practical and perhaps the reason so many people never trained at all - and that can devalue a trade.

​Just another £2.20 there