British Standards Query

[jamesbond]

Hello,

I recently received some great advice from you all regarding an ongoing dispute (Is this an acceptable edge cut? - https://www.tilersforums.com/threads/is-this-an-acceptable-edge-cut.84202/), and I wondered if I might impose on you one more time for some information regarding BS 5385.
I cannot afford to purchase a copy, and we are now going to mediation over the dispute in a couple of days, so don't have time to locate a copy in a library.
I just wondered if anyone who owns a copy could possibly relate what it says with regard to quality of finish. In particular, lining up of tiles, quality of cuts and tiles being flush.
These are the three main issues we have with the work, and three things we feel are a fundamental expectation of any tiling job (something which you all kindly confirmed in the above thread) and it would greatly help if we were able to provide some information on this in our defence from a respected organisation like British Standards.
This issue has been going on for 4 months now. We have offered to pay half for the tiling despite being completely unsatisfied, but they still demand full payment.
Any information on this matter any of you are able to help with would be appreciated enormously.
Thanks in advance.

 

[Tile Shop]

Lining up and sitting flush I can help with. But as far as I am aware there is nothing relating to the quality of the cut. But I will have a good look through and post up whatever I can find. Hopefully this afternoon if I don't get too much thrown my way but more than likely tomorrow if thats ok?

 

[Tile Shop]

Sorry, just to clarify, is it just the wall tiles or floor as well?

 

[jamesbond]

Hi Paul,
That is great. Thanks so much!
It is both walls and floor.

 

[Tile Shop]

Ok. Wanted to check as there is a standard for each. Leave with me.

Pretty sure that the levels should be within +/- 3mm over a 2m stretch, and flushness i.e. lippage, should be no more than 1mm on a joint 6mm or less or 2mm for joints over 6mm. But I'll give you the exact wording when I get a chance 🙂

 

[Tile Shop]

BS5385-1:2009 Wall and floor tiling. Design and installation of ceramic, natural stone and mosaic wall tiling in normal internal conditions. Code of practice

7.1.9.1 Finished tile surfaces
The surface should be true such that, when checked with a 2m straightedge with 3mm thick feet at each end, the straightedge should not be obstructed by the tiles and no gap should be greater than 6mm

There are permissible manufacturing tolerances for ceramic tiles defined in BS EN 14411; certain types of tiles, e.g. extruded or large format, might have permissible surface flatness irregularities that cannot satisfactorily be accommodated within the surface flatness tolerance permitted to the tile installer; this should be taken into account when evaluating the achievable flatness of a wall or floor tiling installation.

Note: In my professional opinion, based on your images, the last paragraph should not apply to your tiles, but get written advise from your supplier to clarify. Paul C.... more to follow....

 

[Tile Shop]

BS5385-1:2009 Wall and floor tiling. Design and installation of ceramic, natural stone and mosaic wall tiling in normal internal conditions. Code of practice

7.1.9.2 Across Joints
There should be no appreciable difference in level across joints (commonly called "lipping") and the maximum deviation between tile surfaces wither side of a joint, including movement joints, should be as follows.

a) Joints less than 6mm wide, 1mm
b) Joints 6mm or more, 2mm

 

[Tile Shop]

There is nothing about the quality of cut that I can find, unless you want to clutch at straws and use this statement to your advantage:

BS5385-1:2009 Wall and floor tiling. Design and installation of ceramic, natural stone and mosaic wall tiling in normal internal conditions. Code of practice

7.1.4 Setting out
It is important for the appearance of the finished wall tiling that unsightly cut tiles are avoided and that joints are of a uniform width, true to a line continuous and without steps: allowance should be made for an adequate width of joint. Cut courses both vertical and horizontal, should be:
a) Kept to a minimum;
b) determined in advance;
c) as large as possible;
d) arranged in the least prominent of alternative locations.


You could happily argue that the cuts are unsightly and this could be backed up by giving a competent tiler a sample of your tile, cut properly and finished correctly, then compared to what has actually been installed. However this is more aimed at at cut positions and overall set out of the installation. Then again it is open to interpretation.

To be continued.......

 

[Tile Shop]

BS5385-1:2009 Wall and floor tiling. Design and installation of ceramic, natural stone and mosaic wall tiling in normal internal conditions. Code of practice

7.1.4 Setting out (continued)
Where wall surfaces are interrupted by features, e.g. windows, access panels or sanitary fittings, the tiler should seek guidance from the designer as to the setting out to be adopted; similar guidance might be required in the positioning of movement joints, since they are predominant and could determine the setting out pattern.

Horizontal joints and cut courses should be positioned depending on several factors, of which the following are examples.
1) Tiled areas that adjoin or are adjacent should be set out so that horizontal joints are aligned
2) The upper and/or lower extremities of a wall might not be level requiring a course or courses to be cut with a raking edge. Wherever possible, the horizontal joints should be positioned so that the whole of the rake can be taken up with the height of the tile in the cut course.
3) If it is thought desirable to align a joint with a feature, this becomes the setting out point and might initiate the need for, and frequently dictate the location of cut courses elswhere
4) To ensure that rows of tiles are truly horizontal, a level line should be established to position the starting course. This level line should be continuous across all surfaces.

 

[Tile Shop]

Slightly off subject but of interest to anyone who thought that the BS requirements were 2mm for wall tiles:

7.2.1.6 Tile joints
Tiles should never be fixed with butt-joints, as an adequate width of joint is necessary for the relief of local stress. Joints of approximately 1mm to 2mm should be left around every tile by inserting spacing pegs of suitable thickness between the tiles as fixing proceeds. If for design reasons wider joints are required, the same technique should be adopted.