Gyvlon again

[Gazzer]

Here I am stuck in the middle of a builder who wants me to tile a floor and the client who also wants me to tile the floor....but its Gyvlon. The builder has now said to just do the job direct with the client because this way he washes his hands of it.
I have just priced Creative Impression adhesive GBTA adhesive and primer and for what i will need for this 50m2 floor then I just know that the price will not go down well and I havent found out yet about delivery prices !!

I have contacted various local shops and no one has a suitable product available, all I get is them saying they will make inquiries. As yet no has got back to me.

On top of materials I still have to add the price of hire of a floor sander but which one is suitable. Again I ask local hire shops and they all try to give me a scabbler.

I have to meet the client tonight and of course want the job but also do it right. Of course I have read al the info on here but all threads and posts lack detail of such things as Moisture tests and where to get them , how much etc. Which floor sander and other alternatives to the GBTA adhesive.
I know Nicobond have an adhesive out but as stated I cant get info or find anyone who has used or even heard of it.
I tried Weber but they never got back to me, I know they have withdrawn the Weber Col and say they have another one coming out soon but when ?

 

[Dan]

I wish I could help you mate but I'd be asking you far more questions that you've asked yourself there so I'll stay well out of it. Have you asked eeerm, who's our Gyvlon guy on here again? Is he still with them? He'd know though i think wouldn't he?

 

[floora]

Anhandrite screeds need to be dry, they are based on plaster and are required to loose water to gain strength priming will be of no use if the product is not hard/dry enough.

 

[Gazzer]

You mean Alan ?, Yes asked in other posts but as I have said info is short of detail. I have now emailed the major adhesive manufacturers but I know that if they dont have a Gypsum based adhesive they will say just prime it and tile with their adhesive.

So if anyone has done a Gyvlon floor I need to know
What sander did you use ?
What primer?
What test for moisture did you use ?
What adhesive did you use ?

 

[Gazzer]

Anhandrite screeds need to be dry, they are based on plaster and are required to loose water to gain strength priming will be of no use if the product is not hard/dry enough.

Yes mate I know that but that wasnt my question !

Sorry but I am getting very frustrated here by the lack of info from the Reps of adhesive companies etc.

 

[Gazzer]

I have now emailed the major adhesive manufacturers but I know that if they dont have a Gypsum based adhesive they will say just prime it and tile with their adhesive.

And here is Webers response !
1. Ensure you remove the surface laitance of the screed ( This can be
done with a mechanical scabbler or sander ). Failure to do this could
result in the tiles debonding.
2. Prime the floor with weber PR360 (1:3). Let the first coat of primer
dry and then keep adding additional coats until the screed will not
absorb anymore.
3. Lay the tiles with weber.set SPF flexible floor tile adhesive.
4. Grout the tiles with weber.joint fine/wide flex.

No mention of Weber Col. !

 

[floora]

My fault
First sanding,it is to remove the weak materiel that can be from a light dust to several mm roatary disc machines with stone cutting pads and a good hoover.
Second, Moisture testing is carried out with a speedy carbide bomb if you phone up Schluter they will tell you what moisture content you can lay Dirta at as that can be laid on a slightly damper floor.
Thirdly primers some use epoxy but as long as its clean Ardex P51 will do the job phone them.
Last, adhesive I prefer a rapid set but thats just me.

 

[Gazzer]

Mapei`s response
Dry, Abrade, prime with Eco Prim T ( 2-1 ratio)
Tile with Keraquick .

 

[Gazzer]

BAL response
Prime APD( 2 coats) then use PTB flexible.

Getting no where fast with differing info. :mad2:

 

[Gazzer]

Ultra ( Instarmac)
Once the screed has been prepared as indicated, in order to fix tiles, the surface must firstly be primed with a calcium sulphate screed compatible primer. LAFARGE recommends that you seek the advice of a tile adhesive manufacturer. INSTARMAC state that an acrylic based primer such as, ULTRA FLOOR Prime IT AR is most appropriate. Such primers also act as a separating barrier between the calcium sulphate and ordinary portland cement based tile adhesive.

 

[wayne]

nicobond have just released an adhesive to tile direct to gyvlon screeds. its been designed in conjunction with gyvlon itself. i think its called gypfix the rep told me about it thursday and its released today.

 

[Ajax123]

Sir Ramic.

In essence all of the advic you seem to have been given is identical allbeit using different manufacturers products. The sander to use is a simple floor scarrifier.....NOT A NEEDLE SCABBLER........you can hire a floor scarrifier from any good tool hire shop e.g. speedy hire. You will need sanding disks to go with it which are 60grit or medium grit. for 50m2 I would suggest 1 (maye 2 to be on the safe side) should be enough. Depending on the Gyvlon format you will either be trying to remove laitance and construction debris if it is the old fashioned stuff or if it is skin free you will just be sanding it to remove construction debris. Low laitance screeds do not need to be sanded to remove laitance. To find out the format if you can let me know who supplied the screed I can find that out for you.

Once sanded make sure you vacuum up the dust. Sweeping will not be suitable as it will force the dust back into the open pore structure of the screed. once vaccuumed prime it as soon as possible with your selected primer in accordance with manufacturers advice. Most will advise 2:1 dilution. for the first coat to aid penetration into the screed which is very important. Further coats should then be added typically neat but not always so again check with the manufacturer. Ususally with Bal or Ultra 2 coats are sufficient/ With somke others more coats might be needed.

If there is any underfloor heating this must be comissioned before priming or tiling.

You have a choice of adhesives

1. Cement Based flexible adhesives - these are the most comomon and what you will generally be used to using on sand cement screeds. They are robust provided the screed is dry and stays dry. If there is moisture present then they are the least robust available.

2. Sulphate resistant Adhesives such as Kerrakol H40 Ideal or Benfers Benfergyps. These say they can be used primerless. I have seen them both used successfully and am only aware of a couple of problems with the Kerrakoll one. They seem to work like dispersion adhesives but are bagged powder.

3. Tubbed readymixed cement free adhesives.....No self respecting professional tilers seem to use these so say no more

4. Gypsum Based adhesives such as GBTA from Creative Impressions which uses their own primer. I have seen this used loads of times and have yet to see a single failure. I am currently working on a major project for McDonalds (15 resteraunts) where Gyvlon is being used. They are being tiled with GBTA. The tilers comment was "It goes off like a rapid set and you have to work clean but it spreads really well and is easy to handle"
There is also Gypfix which is released to market today and is designed to use primerless on sound screeds. If the screed is dusty then a stabilizing primer can be used. I have dealt with the screeders/tilers trialling this in the feild and their comments have been very positive. You will not find a tiler who has used it yet cos it is only just released. Daz whos s on the forums is going to be using it and another trial was done over on Anglesey. The gypsum based adhesives can be used on a wetter screed (1% moisture) asopposed to the cement ones which will need a dry screed (0.5%)

In terms of pure adhesion and longevity of bond Gypsum has to be the most robust. It is generally more expensive than cement but Gyvlon are confident in the bond capabilities of gypsum based adhesives so the price is probably worth it. You can offer alternatives to trim the price if you need to. Some of then ones mentioned above in the cement based section are also very robust.

Moisture measurement is by Hair Hygrometer, Carbide Bomb or Oven Dried sample. Digital electronic meters do not work and be wary of digital hygrometers. Back to Back testing of some of these indicates that they can give wildly erratic readings if the screed is outside of a "dry range" The Carbide Bomb test is probably the quickest and easiest to do but the equipment is less easy to get hold of. It also works on sand cement screeds.

Hope this helps but if you need owt else let me know.

 

[Gazzer]

Thanks Alan, in depth as usual but still lacking real info on the moisture tests, ie. How practical is it to do ? Who normally is responsible for doing it? where to get the equipment and how much ?

As I was reading that post of yours above, Nicobond called me with details of Gypfix and prices. A lot better than GBTA and delivery too So it looks as though I may be trying it out soon.
N&C (Nicholls and Clarke) Building materials manufacturer and supplier

Now scarifiers ! just finding the correct one, calls to HSS and Speedy drawed a blank when I mentioned Latience even though it mentions it on their site.

 

[Dan]

Sounds like you've got a right stress on Neale. Though you're onto it and the customers will/should see that. Go price it up as much as you can and tell them you're just waiting for the price to hire a machine and waiting to clarify the moisture thing and get back to them ASAP with that extra info... perhaps?

 

[Ajax123]

Floor scarifier - 110v should be ok

 

[Ajax123]

http://www.hss.com/g/58511/Floor-Scarifier.htmlOr this one

 

[Ajax123]

Moisture testing would generally be the responsibility of the main contractor but obviously in domestics there usually is not one. However if it were me being asked to tile the floor I would want my own piece of mind and test it myself. Testing with a hygrometer is very simple. You stick it the floor and leave it there for 48 to 72 hours and then read it. If it says below the % required by the adhesive ie 75 for cement 85 for gypsum then you are ok to tile. If it is above the numbers it is not ready. Drying depends heavily on site conditions. Warm and well ventillated is best. You can cotract out moisture teting for about £400 but you can buy a hygrometer for £30 so i know which i would do. Calibration is also important to make sure you read accurately. Further advice available on request.

 

[Gazzer]

Advice is good Alan, more the better.
Just been to see the job and explained to the client the issues , they are fine about it. Screed has been down about 6 weeks and there is no rush so plenty more time available. i have instructed them to commission the heating, they haven't as yet.
I am swaying on the use Gypfix adhesive.
I just need to get a price for days hire of sander etc and consumables, ask the builder who supplied the screed ( But I am sure he said LaFarge when we last spoke) and a final chat with Nicobond before putting the quote in.
Thanks for al the help

 

[Gazzer]

Sounds like you've got a right stress on Neale. Though you're onto it and the customers will/should see that. Go price it up as much as you can and tell them you're just waiting for the price to hire a machine and waiting to clarify the moisture thing and get back to them ASAP with that extra info... perhaps?

Not really stressed but fed up with so many opinions of which I dont really go with. You see for me I see the sense in a gypsum adhesive and not priming and SPF adhesive. It rests clear in my mind but I dont go with the way GBTA is sold ie no trade discount or if it is then its very expensive against the price of Nicobond.
Which ever way I turn I just want to sure of a correct job. At the end of the day I am sure all adhesive manufacturers will bring out their own version of Gypsum addys and then it will all be a lot easier.
A little stress now is better than a lot later anyway

 

[Ajax123]

Six weeks it probably won't be dry yet. They should use the heating to force dry it. Switch on at ambient (25degrees) for three days then increase by five degrees per day up to maximum temp of 55 . Don't be scared of high temperature. Leave at this temp for 7 days then drop back to ambient by 5 degree increments per day before switching off for two days before tiling.

 

[Gazzer]

Six weeks it probably won't be dry yet. They should use the heating to force dry it. Switch on at ambient (25degrees) for three days then increase by five degrees per day up to maximum temp of 55 . Don't be scared of high temperature. Leave at this temp for 7 days then drop back to ambient by 5 degree increments per day before switching off for two days before tiling.

Already told them about using the heating. I will insert this into my quote too.

 

[nybor62]

i have use gbta creative impressions addy afew times . goes off like lightning . we only mixed small amounts at a time enough for about 2m2
i did here rumours that they had increased the pot life of it
i would,nt want to use it again , but it works fine had no tiles debonding

 

[Ajax123]

Think they have re tori ares to give longer pot life. Not sure what the pot life I on the nicobond gear. Will find out

 

[Gazzer]

Think they have re tori ares to give longer pot life. Not sure what the pot life I on the nicobond gear. Will find out

• Colour: White
• Max bed thickness: 12 mm
• Coverage: 4 – 4.5kg per m² at 3mm
• Adjustment: 15 – 20 min
• Grouting: Approx 4 hrs
• Pot Life: Approx 45 mins
• Open Time: Approx 20 mins
• Available: 20kg

 

[Ajax123]

I am wondering what r tori ares means...... Damn this touch pad keyboard....