gyvlon floor and I am the bad boy!

[macten]

What about these Gyvlon screeds that are sold to the client as zero laitence?
Do you still need to sand those?

 

[Gazzer]

My usual answer is treat it as anhydrite anyway because what you do with anhydrite will work with other screeds a well.

Just dont use a Gypsum addy on a cement floor

 

[jonnyc]

sorry i lost half of what i wrote but i think it is quite unfair to suggest that we are just not moving with the times here.
tilers who have been in business over 20 years of which there area number on this forum have had to adjust to massive changes in product and type of execution and we have adjusted or would not be in business now.
yes we are behind france and germany on this anhydrite but until recently we werent even afforded the opportunity to readily get adhesive that is user friendly.
if we had now the screed companies with experience of our neighbours over the water who ahve been doing this for years and the adhesives we would not be having so many problems.
i have spoken with gary the tiler about this and he has had some experience in germany with anhydrites with no problems. why was this do you think. he didnt know what this was when he arrived im sure but he had screed companies that knew what they were and and adhesives available for this method

 

[jonnyc]

alan i think you have been very helpful about these screeds , but there is no doubt in my mind that they are the biggest problem for tilers at the moment.
in this difficult time for us all , i have had to turn down a number of very good jobs simply because the builder could not wait till the screed dried correctly. they all said they were sold a fast track arrangement and who has sold this to them.
i have not turned down any other very good jobs for any other reason in same period!!!

 

[Gazzer]

alan i think you have been very helpful about these screeds , but there is no doubt in my mind that they are the biggest problem for tilers at the moment.
in this difficult time for us all , i have had to turn down a number of very good jobs simply because the builder could not wait till the screed dried correctly. they all said they were sold a fast track arrangement and who has sold this to them.
i have not turned down any other very good jobs for any other reason in same period!!!

Thats exactly what i get too.

 

[jonnyc]

I have just reread your post in response to deanotile, ajax and i am getting more and more aggrieved by what i hear.
in fairness , i also think that you have had skinfull of complaints about what you perceive to be the future and are feel your product is just being dismissed as being no good because we islanders who have always done our own thing , think we know better and are averse to change.
just for our info, can you tell me when suitable gypsum adhesives became readily available in this country.
i did my first job on anhydrite i think approx 7-8 years ago.
what sort of advice was i given by screed company. Abosuletly zero except to say it needs a normal primer.
Did another none year

 

[bugs183]

As above, these screeds are a becoming a nightmare.
Drying is a major problem to the customer and the tiler, you just can't book these jobs in.
Builders giving the customer the wrong info.
No one sands at the right time, or just don't sand at all.
Adhesive costs more.
Testing methods, who pays for my 3rd 40 mile round trip to test a floor that was 'concrete and dry', with methods that are impractical for a self employed bloke to carry out, there are only so many hours in the day.wWe also now don't trust these methods.. Incidently neither do the American or Australian surveyers i talk to, they say moisture probes in the floor.
So thats a worry as well.
I can totally see Deanos point, we are doing a job we know well, then to have it all change without being told, which DID happen and have floors go wrong, and lay floors with methods we don't trust is not a great way to work at all.

 

[jonnyc]

did one another a year later and thank goodness never had a come back.
it might be a little bit cheeky to suggest, but i believe ardex who are german based i think, have known about these anhydrite screeds for many years , but have not deigned to supply in this country until a good market for product established.
two different industries. screed companies thinking ahead and adhesive manufacturers not following suit to back up a new product on foreign fields.
no point in wasting their money bringing in new technology to a country who is still wallowing in the mud of previous success, is there!!
but if we are given a chance to harness new technology with back up from all sides, well be there.
we hardly want to give good jobs away

 

[bugs183]

And to add, all this is on a forum for tilers who know their stuff!
Think about all the the tilers who aren't aware of the probelms, DIYers etc. No one wants problems.
The tile and adhesive suppliers aren't much better, i use a huge distributor and they look at me like i'm stupid when i mention what their policy on advising customers are for these floors.
I've gone on the record and asked some really dumb questions, just because i want to know everything about these screeds, but the more i know, and having used gysum based based adhesives, i find it hard having any confidence in these floors.

 

[Ajax123]

I have just reread your post in response to deanotile, ajax and i am getting more and more aggrieved by what i hear.
in fairness , i also think that you have had skinfull of complaints about what you perceive to be the future and are feel your product is just being dismissed as being no good because we islanders who have always done our own thing , think we know better and are averse to change.
just for our info, can you tell me when suitable gypsum adhesives became readily available in this country.
i did my first job on anhydrite i think approx 7-8 years ago.
what sort of advice was i given by screed company. Abosuletly zero except to say it needs a normal primer.
Did another none year

The first gypsum based adhesive became available aout ten years ago in the uk from a small company called dexters industrial who were a paint and epoxy company. They unfortunately went bust but not before creative impressions began making their own adhesive which would be about seven years ago. Not sure if it was kerakoll or weber who were next but that was about five years or so ago although weber took theirs out of the market. Not really sure why. Next came gypfix about two years ago followed by nicobond and norcross last year. One of the problems has been route to market. Not many of these companies have national distribution outlets so it is often a case of ordering direct from the manufacturer. Second Biggest issue we have is that the major manufacturers e.g. Mapei have gypsum adhesives available in Europe but because there is no British standard to cover gypsum adhesives they are reluctant to bring them into the UK. There is also a cost issue as they are generally more expensive with a few exceptions.

In terms of advice by the screed companies I agree that the information was very poor ten years ago. I started with lafarge about ten years ago and got involved with anhydrite pretty quickly. I soon recognised that there was a real problem with both knowledge of follow on trades and subsequently the advice that could be given. It was perceived and probably still is to a certain extent that the screed company should offer advice on the screed and the adhesive supplier should offer advice on the adhesive which is right and proper. Trouble is there is little room for error when using adhesive systems which are not chemically compatible with anhydrite. The key is preparation and priming but unfortunately in many of the issues I have been involved with these are areas that have been carried out poorly. That is one of the reasons I post on here to try and help educate the masses so to speak. Anhydrite screeds are here to stay. The have been around for decades already. It always surprises me whe people this they are new. They are not. In actual fact the have been around for longer than some adhesive systems.

 

[Ajax123]

did one another a year later and thank goodness never had a come back.
it might be a little bit cheeky to suggest, but i believe ardex who are german based i think, have known about these anhydrite screeds for many years , but have not deigned to supply in this country until a good market for product established.
two different industries. screed companies thinking ahead and adhesive manufacturers not following suit to back up a new product on foreign fields.
no point in wasting their money bringing in new technology to a country who is still wallowing in the mud of previous success, is there!!
but if we are given a chance to harness new technology with back up from all sides, well be there.
we hardly want to give good jobs away

Here here. Calcium sulphate screeds we first used in large quantities in east Germany just after the second world war. Perhaps that is why Germany are so far ahead.

 

[jonnyc]

And to add, all this is on a forum for tilers who know their stuff!
Think about all the the tilers who aren't aware of the probelms, DIYers etc. No one wants problems.
The tile and adhesive suppliers aren't much better, i use a huge distributor and they look at me like i'm stupid when i mention what their policy on advising customers are for these floors.
I've gone on the record and asked some really dumb questions, just because i want to know everything about these screeds, but the more i know, and having used gysum based based adhesives, i find it hard having any confidence in these floors.

yes you are quite right, what about all the others who are not as well versed in what we are supposed to do with these screeds. those tilers who have laid on to anhydrite that is not dry as should be only because they have not been told what the score is.
you could say well it is a duty of care that a tiler has, to not lay on to substrate, about which he is not fully au fait with.
but if he is told by builder that it is dry and builder has not been told by screeder that he needs to advise the tiler that he need to apply special primer etcc , why should this tiler think anything is amiss in what he does.

 

[jonnyc]

alan , as an aside before you take up your new job take a look at jupiter underfloor heating systems!!
for me i see them as the future .
i know its not screed but a system that incorporates clinker tiles glued together sitting on top of a wet system , effectively a floating floor.
no expansion joints.
quick response warm up . tiles dont retain heat they let heat through to tiles/stone above.
be interested to know what you think of this with your experience in flooring.
yet again another innovation from deutschland!!

 

[Spud]

I can speak with experience from laying on these screeds in Germany and I put the blame on failures squarely at the feet of the screed suppliers and installers ,what Alan hasnt mentioned is that it is the responsibilty of the screed supplier/installer to sand the floor and cut the expansion joints in after it has cured these screeds are sold and installed with no follow on after sales service from the supplier,when a tiler arrives on site it is almost impossible to tell if the floor has been laytexed or if it is a flow screed if it hasnt been sanded,also the building sites in europe are managed very differently to uk sites the screeds are installed into air tight buildings with double glazing installed and a screed would never be installed into a building which was open to the elements unlike here in the uk wher we have a much damper climate and more draughty sites , anhydrite does have its limitations with in the building industry and the screed suppliers need to take on board that this is the UK and we do work different to France ,Germany and Italy but I can also tell you that I never saw a anhydrite screed installed in what was classed as a wet area or food prep area where this was always a sand and cement screed and it was just used in domestic and residential usage

 

[The D]

So let me get this straight in my head. I go out and get my self a fancydan hydro meter and the manufacturers instructions tell me ABC but I am now told to ignore that and do XYZ. But now if anything goes wrong it is me that is in the wrong as I have not worked to the manufacturers instructions.

I am with Neil I will be drafting a declaimer and stating it is up to the client to tell me when the floor is fit to install the tiles and it is there responsibility to source the correct adhesive and method of installation.

 

[Ajax123]

I absolutely agree that it shold be up to the client to say when the screed is suitably dry to receive tiles.

sanding to remove laitance and loose skin which is on the screed just post installation should be removed by the screeder or the builder (it s a contractual thing) unless the tiler wants to do it which is up to him really although at the point that it needs doing the tiler may not be in the equation. However preparation to receive tiles I.e. cleaning the screed up to remove construction debris should be down to the tiler/builder again unless the screeder wants to do it. All these things should form part f a contract. Sadly hat s something else we fail in general to do in the uk I.e. detail duties and responsibilities in a contract. Something else. Guess the Germans are better at.

What I have said before and will say again is that I would love to see legislation which makes the follow on trade fully responsible for signing off the previous trades work.

 

[Ajax123]

So let me get this straight in my head. I go out and get my self a fancydan hydro meter and the manufacturers instructions tell me ABC but I am now told to ignore that and do XYZ. But now if anything goes wrong it is me that is in the wrong as I have not worked to the manufacturers instructions.

I am with Neil I will be drafting a declaimer and stating it is up to the client to tell me when the floor is fit to install the tiles and it is there responsibility to source the correct adhesive and method of installation.

No entirely sure what balls instructions say. I thnk he say leave in place for at least our hours to acheive equilibrium. People read this as leave it for four hours. Screeds and concretes don't work that quickly. Experience tells us that he hygro meter needs to be left at least 24hours to get a meaningful reading.

 

[Rizzle from the Portizzle]

well

They are not my instructions mate. I can oly say it how it is based on experience and testing in the lab. There is really no reason why the client should not do the test themselves itis hardly rocket science. I often Recomend to clients tha they buy themselves a hygrometer for 80quid which in the overall cost of a build is peanuts. The canteen test the screed and tell you when it's dry. Really that is how it should be in my opinion anyway.

well you could incoprate a free test meter into the cost of the screed leaving with the client a full set of instrutions before any floor is signed off .then its the clients job to tell you when to start laying .

 

[Ajax123]

wellwell you could incoprate a free test meter into the cost of the screed leaving with the client a full set of instrutions before any floor is signed off .then its the clients job to tell you when to start laying .

actually ray some screeders do that. The better ones generally. I could not do it as I don't sell the screed. I am too far removed from the contract chain to be able to get involved. However the clients only need to ask and over the last couple of years an increasing number do which is a good thing IMO.

 

[Gazzer]

Well the latest reading is 96% !!!
I am off the job now and have spoken to the client who is very understanding now. I assume he has been checking up on the info I have been giving him.
At this point I have put it in writing that I feel a carbide bomb test should be done and the best way forward will be to contact the screeder to get this sorted.
The client agrees and as I type this he is chasing them for an answer.

Just to put my mind at rest about the hygrometer I will be testing it on a section of floor in my house.....just out of curiosity .

For further jobs I will have a letter printed off, and it will say that it willl be the responsibility of the screeder or client to obtain a satisfactory test before I start tiling.

 

[Ajax123]

Well the latest reading is 96% !!!
I am off the job now and have spoken to the client who is very understanding now. I assume he has been checking up on the info I have been giving him.
At this point I have put it in writing that I feel a carbide bomb test should be done and the best way forward will be to contact the screeder to get this sorted.
The client agrees and as I type this he is chasing them for an answer.

Just to put my mind at rest about the hygrometer I will be testing it on a section of floor in my house.....just out of curiosity .

For further jobs I will have a letter printed off, and it will say that it willl be the responsibility of the screeder or client to obtain a satisfactory test before I start tiling.

just a couple of questions before you go... I assume the screed was it heated during the testing I.e. the ufh was not on. And also, not to do with you i know, but is there an effective damp proof membrane under the screed. It should be built as substrate then 1200gauge membrane, insulation, 500gauge slip membrane, then pipes then screed.

To go the whole hog with letters it would hphe useful to get a written instruction to start which says that they have tested and it is dry... Perhaps you should get them to sign a pre printed sheet before you start.

 

[Gazzer]

This floor wasnt heated..ie no UFH installed. no heat in the house at all at the moment.
I can only assume the screeders did the job correct, I dont have xray vision. I am told it was Lafarge Gyvlon Low laitance and the screeders are known to you. I know this because we exchanged PMs a while back on another job.

 

[Ajax123]

Good stuff. No reason to think the reading is not accurate then. However it is worth noting that whilst the low laitance version has its advantages we have seen a number of instances where high humidity readings have not been corroborated by carbide bomb tests so I think you are right to go that way.

 

[mz30]

hygrometers ,carbide bomb tests ??????????? am at a loss !!!!

If the job is getting that involved i think i will retire early,what happened to the old sand and cement screed and fitting on the same day?

 

[Rizzle from the Portizzle]

hygrometers ,carbide bomb tests ??????????? am at a loss !!!!

If the job is getting that involved i think i will retire early,what happened to the old sand and cement screed and fitting on the same day?

well it seems that fixing in to wet sand and cemment the same day. grouting the next. walk on the next .was far to slow?so they bought out a screed that self levels? to speed things up ?that cant be tiled for guess how long ?who realy knows .with failure after failure .over 10 years now and still going wrong .well give me sand and cemment fixing any day never had one fail ever .and can screed and tile 20 to 30m2 in a day. 5 us layed 120 m2 sceeded and tiled the same day no problems