Help! Tiled wetroom floor looks perfect but grout doesn't dry out!

[Paula]

Shame I'm not a plumber, Walton's not far from me.
In the words of Manuel "I know nothink!"
If after ALL of your options are exhausted, and you still get no joy from the plumber who did the work......
I do know people who do know somthink!
If you need someone.

Thanks very much. That's nice to know. You'd be very welcome to swing by and have a look if you think it would help?

 

[Old Mod]

If I was any kind of plumber I would Paula, unfortunately I'd be clueless.
Sorry.

 

[The D]

Tell the plumber that if it is not sorted within the next month you will be getting quotations together from competent wet room installation companies, to identify a rectify the problem and then you will be starting legal proceedings against him to recover the cost of fixing the leak he has left you with

also any additional costs you have already laid out as in epoxy grout and tilers time and compensation for your new and very expensive wet room being out of action for months on end. you have to make it so it is more hassle for him to leave it than just getting it sorted.

 

[Paula]

Tell the plumber that if it is not sorted within the next month you will be getting quotations together from competent wet room installation companies, to identify a rectify the problem and then you will be starting legal proceedings against him to recover the cost of fixing the leak he has left you with

also any additional costs you have already laid out as in epoxy grout and tilers time and compensation for your new and very expensive wet room being out of action for months on end. you have to make it so it is more hassle for him to leave it than just getting it sorted.

I have to deal with the builder rather than the plumber direct, but yes I think unless we get some action this week we'll have to get heavy-handed. Just out of interest do you know of any 'competent wet room installation companies' we could get in to have a look?

 

[Dan]

I have to deal with the builder rather than the plumber direct, but yes I think unless we get some action this week we'll have to get heavy-handed. Just out of interest do you know of any 'competent wet room installation companies' we could get in to have a look?

Whoever you choose you want them to be reputable in their field. You need them to be highly qualified plumbers. It won't ever get to court or even small claims I'm sure, but if it did, you wouldn't want to have a guy who's winging it.

Take a look on our plumbing forum. Perhaps reply to the thread I created with an update and mention you may need an independent assessor that can carry out an inspection and provide a written quote with what's required to repair the job. You might need to pay for the report, but if you end up taking legal action, I'm pretty sure you'd get that cash back.

Obviously perhaps start to communicate (or at least confirm after speaking on the phone) via email or something so you have some records of the builder saying he'll be there on such a day to do such a thing.

Pretty sure as Deano said, if it's more hassle for him to leave it, he'll be around sharpish to make his headache stop.

 

[Paula]

What's with the blank messages?

Sorry about that: the whole system seemed to freeze and I couldn't write anything! Can you delete them?

Anyway, was just going to update you as the plumber came today (at last!). It was the first time he had been back since installing the bathroom and was quite surprised at the extent of the damp patches on the grout. He pressure tested the two outlets (see the picture attached) at 2 bars and there was no drop in pressure over half an hour or so. He seemed to mend the drip in the elbow of the hand-held shower by putting some more tape on, but thought this had been unlikely to be the cause of the problem as we hardly ever use the hand-held shower. When he dismantled the valve there was no sign of leaking behind it.

So....not sure where that leaves us now! He wondered if there was still a pool of water under the shower tray tiles dating back to pre-epoxy, and that since applying epoxy grout, this dampness can only escape by travelling to the areas outside the shower tray which still have normal grout. I suppose that it is possible that this drying out is not an even process, and that maybe some days there is more evaporation than others, which we mistook to be leaks from the pipework, but could be unconnected?

He thought the only way to test this was to turn up the underfloor heating (which is all over the floor apart from in the shower tray) and try and completely dry the damp patches. Then to start using the shower again and see if it comes back. If it does, we know it's not coming from the pipework, but getting through the shower tray somehow. I wonder if it is getting in around the drain, as the tiles have been cut very tight to the drain here, so there is not much grout in the gap?

In any case, if it is getting through the grout it should not be pooling under the tiles, should it? The tiler thought he had fixed this problem by pouring more adhesive down the gaps when he removed the old grout, but perhaps this didn't work?

So that's how we left it. I'd be interested if anyone disagrees with this logic, or has any other suggestions on how to proceed? It seems we have ruled out plumbing problems!

Meanwhile, we have a very warm bathroom floor!

 

[Dan]

Sorry about that: the whole system seemed to freeze and I couldn't write anything! Can you delete them?

Anyway, was just going to update you as the plumber came today (at last!). It was the first time he had been back since installing the bathroom and was quite surprised at the extent of the damp patches on the grout. He pressure tested the two outlets (see the picture attached) at 2 bars and there was no drop in pressure over half an hour or so. He seemed to mend the drip in the elbow of the hand-held shower by putting some more tape on, but thought this had been unlikely to be the cause of the problem as we hardly ever use the hand-held shower. When he dismantled the valve there was no sign of leaking behind it.

So....not sure where that leaves us now! He wondered if there was still a pool of water under the shower tray tiles dating back to pre-epoxy, and that since applying epoxy grout, this dampness can only escape by travelling to the areas outside the shower tray which still have normal grout. I suppose that it is possible that this drying out is not an even process, and that maybe some days there is more evaporation than others, which we mistook to be leaks from the pipework, but could be unconnected?

He thought the only way to test this was to turn up the underfloor heating (which is all over the floor apart from in the shower tray) and try and completely dry the damp patches. Then to start using the shower again and see if it comes back. If it does, we know it's not coming from the pipework, but getting through the shower tray somehow. I wonder if it is getting in around the drain, as the tiles have been cut very tight to the drain here, so there is not much grout in the gap?

In any case, if it is getting through the grout it should not be pooling under the tiles, should it? The tiler thought he had fixed this problem by pouring more adhesive down the gaps when he removed the old grout, but perhaps this didn't work?

So that's how we left it. I'd be interested if anyone disagrees with this logic, or has any other suggestions on how to proceed? It seems we have ruled out plumbing problems!

Meanwhile, we have a very warm bathroom floor!

I still want updates but I'm starting to think we're out of options on here. It's not the tiling that's to blame per se.

Sounds like if he's pressure tested it, then that's ruled that out? I don't know if that's the way to check that. But it sounds like he's done the right thing to me?! - I don't know.

Nice to know he's at least tried. And hopefully if it carries on he'll come back.

Did the wetroom not get tanked into the drain then? So any "pool of water" wouldn't exist? It'd just go down the trap?

 

[Paula]

I still want updates but I'm starting to think we're out of options on here. It's not the tiling that's to blame per se.

Sounds like if he's pressure tested it, then that's ruled that out? I don't know if that's the way to check that. But it sounds like he's done the right thing to me?! - I don't know.

Nice to know he's at least tried. And hopefully if it carries on he'll come back.

Did the wetroom not get tanked into the drain then? So any "pool of water" wouldn't exist? It'd just go down the trap?

Yes, there is tanking all over the floor, which goes straight into the drain. I am just thinking that if somehow water is getting under the tiles around the drain (but on top of the tanking) then it could somehow get wicked away into the rest of the floor (although it would have to go up a slope!). Obviously any leak from the drain would be below the tanking and would appear on the ceiling below.

So surely it must be a tiling problem?

 

[Dan]

Yes, there is tanking all over the floor, which goes straight into the drain. I am just thinking that if somehow water is getting under the tiles around the drain (but on top of the tanking) then it could somehow get wicked away into the rest of the floor (although it would have to go up a slope!). Obviously any leak from the drain would be below the tanking and would appear on the ceiling below.

So surely it must be a tiling problem?

I can't really see how it is as the water must be coming from something to do with the water inlet or water outlet. As we've ruled out condensation and whatnot.

The tanking is doing the job, and as you say the drain isn't leaking below the tanking. Water won't climb uphill even in a warm room. So I can't see how it's evaporating up to the grout in the rest of the floor personally.

I'm still on the leak side of the fence so am assuming it's plumbing.

The tiles and grout aren't the cause of the water though that's for sure. I just don't see how that can be the case.

I'd perhaps ask these lads what they would do maybe: Problematic thread on TilersForums might be a leak in shower - can you help us? - Plumbing Forum

 

[Kris Farquhar]

Yes, there is tanking all over the floor, which goes straight into the drain. I am just thinking that if somehow water is getting under the tiles around the drain (but on top of the tanking) then it could somehow get wicked away into the rest of the floor (although it would have to go up a slope!). Obviously any leak from the drain would be below the tanking and would appear on the ceiling below.

So surely it must be a tiling problem?

Sorry about that: the whole system seemed to freeze and I couldn't write anything! Can you delete them?

Anyway, was just going to update you as the plumber came today (at last!). It was the first time he had been back since installing the bathroom and was quite surprised at the extent of the damp patches on the grout. He pressure tested the two outlets (see the picture attached) at 2 bars and there was no drop in pressure over half an hour or so. He seemed to mend the drip in the elbow of the hand-held shower by putting some more tape on, but thought this had been unlikely to be the cause of the problem as we hardly ever use the hand-held shower. When he dismantled the valve there was no sign of leaking behind it.

So....not sure where that leaves us now! He wondered if there was still a pool of water under the shower tray tiles dating back to pre-epoxy, and that since applying epoxy grout, this dampness can only escape by travelling to the areas outside the shower tray which still have normal grout. I suppose that it is possible that this drying out is not an even process, and that maybe some days there is more evaporation than others, which we mistook to be leaks from the pipework, but could be unconnected?

He thought the only way to test this was to turn up the underfloor heating (which is all over the floor apart from in the shower tray) and try and completely dry the damp patches. Then to start using the shower again and see if it comes back. If it does, we know it's not coming from the pipework, but getting through the shower tray somehow. I wonder if it is getting in around the drain, as the tiles have been cut very tight to the drain here, so there is not much grout in the gap?

In any case, if it is getting through the grout it should not be pooling under the tiles, should it? The tiler thought he had fixed this problem by pouring more adhesive down the gaps when he removed the old grout, but perhaps this didn't work?

So that's how we left it. I'd be interested if anyone disagrees with this logic, or has any other suggestions on how to proceed? It seems we have ruled out plumbing problems!

Meanwhile, we have a very warm bathroom floor!

I was looking at his pressure test , the way your plumber has had that rigged up its only testing the two outlets unless hes done the test from the main stopcock and not the actual shower valve , by using the main your actually testing the whole house but its the only way to test the actual shower valve unless youve access to the pipework,

 

[Paula]

I was looking at his pressure test , the way your plumber has had that rigged up its only testing the two outlets unless hes done the test from the main stopcock and not the actual shower valve , by using the main your actually testing the whole house but its the only way to test the actual shower valve unless youve access to the pipework,

Hi Kris

yes, you are right, but he took the faceplate off the main shower valve and inspected inside (it is buried in quite a large void in the wall) and there was no sign of any leakage from any of the pipes leading into it (I had a look myself). I can double check this with him, though if you think it's relevant.

Meanwhile, we'll carry on toasting the floor and see if it dries out!

 

[The D]

so how did he explain the patches outside the shower getting wetter even when there was no water touching the tiles or the grout or the drane ??

 

[Paula]

I was looking at his pressure test , the way your plumber has had that rigged up its only testing the two outlets unless hes done the test from the main stopcock and not the actual shower valve , by using the main your actually testing the whole house but its the only way to test the actual shower valve unless youve access to the pipework,

Just thinking about this, when you look at where the inlet pipes are in relation to the tiles, they are well behind the plasterboard and tiles. So surely if there was a leak here, then the water would be much more likely to run down the inside of the plasterboard and eventually through to the ceiling below, which definitely hasn't happened. As I said, there was absolutely no sign of leaking anywhere near the valve when we looked in the cavity.

 

[Dan]

And the waste wouldn't cause water to go above the tanking, and as you said, you'd see it in the ceiling below, eventually (at least by now anyway - some staining or something if not a full blown disaster type leak situation).

I'm absolutely baffled I must be honest.

But tiles don't cause water issues like that. It HAS to be something to do with the plumbing, somehow. I just can't think of anything.

The fact it was happening before the epoxy was installed, only means it has been pushed further into the bathroom, the epoxy hasn't fixed the issue per se. So it will still be a problem somewhere around the drain or shower heads. But if theres no sign of leaks there, then I can't see what it can be.

 

[The D]

you need to start removing tiles to see what is going on underneath