I'm Stuck - Wish My Tiles Were

[J Sid]

Christ Dan, is their anything you haven't done.
You should give a thought to a new avatar, some sort of cowboy.

 

[My dog's called Trevor]

Thinking about it.

I'd have a thermostat for each floor. And let them have their own cables. Your wood one won't take long to heat. It'll never get as cold as the other area. So you don't want it switching on with the concrete side.

I'd go with treating them as different areas. It might feel annoying only feeling one side warming on its own every now and again but on cold days the whole thing will be on. Warm days maybe just the concrete side.

Interesting (genuinely, and a bit worrying that it is) as had come to that thought today.
Firstly, although maybe possible, struck me as difficult how you'd have two thermostats informing one control as to when it should/shouldn't allow power to the two separate systems. It would have to allow power to both. So it would be controlled preferentially by whichever area was coolest, 'telling' it to switch to on, and so activating both systems. I don't know this for a fact but don't think the controls are designed to need to be this clever in splitting two input signals and outputs separately. Might have this all wrong.
Something like a CH/HW control could handle it as basically it's taking two completely separate instructions from two systems. Even then its output is to signal the boiler to fire or not fire so there is still only one common outcome - in a heating/hot water system it'd be the room or cylinder thermostats shutting down the MCVs to isolate out that circuit so there is a plumbing shut out which separates the delivery of the control, and therefore boiler, response to the two systems. I'm sure an electrical equivalent is possible but starting to get complicated and would all have to be outside of the standard controls.
Started to think that two separate systems, which will just need setting for the same on/off times or temperature settings would let the whole room run almost as one system.
Or this is all too complicated. The system put down has a temperature sensor under the tiles and a thermostatic control informed by the air temperature in the vicinity of the control box. It'd be air temperature chiefly controlling the heating. Provided the floor sensor was coming from the area likely to be hotter, that would protect any cables from becoming excessively hot. That would tend to leave the less easily heated area cooler.
Anyway, haven't researched this sufficiently to my satisfaction to understand what happens when this and that occurs - eg are the floor sensors just to cut supply if there is excessive floor temperature build up? You wouldn't want to let the temperature under the floor limit the temperature in the room, same as you wouldn't want to let your boiler temperature limit room temperature, until the under floor/boiler temperature reached a level that might threaten the cable/boiler, so you have over-riding cut outs. Not asking you to answer this, just thinking out loud. Struck me it might not be the floor sensors controlling the heating rather than the thermostat in the control box which is effectively a room thermostat, in CH parlance. The box I've got has the facility to be set by room or under floor temperature - unless the under floor temperature gets crazy, you'd always opt for room temperature as that's the point of it. Just for your amusement, when our system was running for a couple of cold weeks in January, room temperature of around 24 needed an under floor temperature, with lots and lots of lovely insulating air around the cables, of a blistering 35.
Only other thing I wondered was that if the insulation under the cables is half-decent, does the difference in flooring beyond the insulation make that much difference? Again, not asking you to answer this but loose ends to sort out before mixing up the first batch of adhesive to lay the first tile.
I've got some homework to do to keep my best mate builder on the right track. Good at homework these days. Bought a big bloody ultra HD telly for the kitchen not having bought a telly for about 6 years. God, don't things change? So what I've discovered about Cat 5a vs 6 ethernet, HDMI 1.4 and 2.0, 4k TV signals and so on.... UFH can be cracked.
Thanks as ever
Matt

 

[My dog's called Trevor]

Interesting (genuinely, and a bit worrying that it is) as had come to that thought today.
Firstly, although maybe possible, struck me as difficult how you'd have two thermostats informing one control as to when it should/shouldn't allow power to the two separate systems. It would have to allow power to both. So it would be controlled preferentially by whichever area was coolest, 'telling' it to switch to on, and so activating both systems. I don't know this for a fact but don't think the controls are designed to need to be this clever in splitting two input signals and outputs separately. Might have this all wrong.
Something like a CH/HW control could handle it as basically it's taking two completely separate instructions from two systems. Even then its output is to signal the boiler to fire or not fire so there is still only one common outcome - in a heating/hot water system it'd be the room or cylinder thermostats shutting down the MCVs to isolate out that circuit so there is a plumbing shut out which separates the delivery of the control, and therefore boiler, response to the two systems. I'm sure an electrical equivalent is possible but starting to get complicated and would all have to be outside of the standard controls.
Started to think that two separate systems, which will just need setting for the same on/off times or temperature settings would let the whole room run almost as one system.
Or this is all too complicated. The system put down has a temperature sensor under the tiles and a thermostatic control informed by the air temperature in the vicinity of the control box. It'd be air temperature chiefly controlling the heating. Provided the floor sensor was coming from the area likely to be hotter, that would protect any cables from becoming excessively hot. That would tend to leave the less easily heated area cooler.
Anyway, haven't researched this sufficiently to my satisfaction to understand what happens when this and that occurs - eg are the floor sensors just to cut supply if there is excessive floor temperature build up? You wouldn't want to let the temperature under the floor limit the temperature in the room, same as you wouldn't want to let your boiler temperature limit room temperature, until the under floor/boiler temperature reached a level that might threaten the cable/boiler, so you have over-riding cut outs. Not asking you to answer this, just thinking out loud. Struck me it might not be the floor sensors controlling the heating rather than the thermostat in the control box which is effectively a room thermostat, in CH parlance. The box I've got has the facility to be set by room or under floor temperature - unless the under floor temperature gets crazy, you'd always opt for room temperature as that's the point of it. Just for your amusement, when our system was running for a couple of cold weeks in January, room temperature of around 24 needed an under floor temperature, with lots and lots of lovely insulating air around the cables, of a blistering 35.
Only other thing I wondered was that if the insulation under the cables is half-decent, does the difference in flooring beyond the insulation make that much difference? Again, not asking you to answer this but loose ends to sort out before mixing up the first batch of adhesive to lay the first tile.
I've got some homework to do to keep my best mate builder on the right track. Good at homework these days. Bought a big bloody ultra HD telly for the kitchen not having bought a telly for about 6 years. God, don't things change? So what I've discovered about Cat 5a vs 6 ethernet, HDMI 1.4 and 2.0, 4k TV signals and so on.... UFH can be cracked.
Thanks as ever
Matt

Ok, since writing this, Julian and Dan have addressed part of what I queried. Sod it - I'm just going to leave the cooker on with the door open. It's got a timer apparently, although the book's so bloody complicated, none of us has worked out how to use that.
Matt

 

[J Sid]

I would of thought the thickness of the insulation board over the two substrates will determine the answer wether to go with two thermostats and two controllers.
I have electric ufh in mist of my rooms controlled by probe in floor, have no idea if air temp control is better or not

 

[Dan]

Interesting (genuinely, and a bit worrying that it is) as had come to that thought today.
Firstly, although maybe possible, struck me as difficult how you'd have two thermostats informing one control as to when it should/shouldn't allow power to the two separate systems. It would have to allow power to both. So it would be controlled preferentially by whichever area was coolest, 'telling' it to switch to on, and so activating both systems. I don't know this for a fact but don't think the controls are designed to need to be this clever in splitting two input signals and outputs separately. Might have this all wrong.
Something like a CH/HW control could handle it as basically it's taking two completely separate instructions from two systems. Even then its output is to signal the boiler to fire or not fire so there is still only one common outcome - in a heating/hot water system it'd be the room or cylinder thermostats shutting down the MCVs to isolate out that circuit so there is a plumbing shut out which separates the delivery of the control, and therefore boiler, response to the two systems. I'm sure an electrical equivalent is possible but starting to get complicated and would all have to be outside of the standard controls.
Started to think that two separate systems, which will just need setting for the same on/off times or temperature settings would let the whole room run almost as one system.
Or this is all too complicated. The system put down has a temperature sensor under the tiles and a thermostatic control informed by the air temperature in the vicinity of the control box. It'd be air temperature chiefly controlling the heating. Provided the floor sensor was coming from the area likely to be hotter, that would protect any cables from becoming excessively hot. That would tend to leave the less easily heated area cooler.
Anyway, haven't researched this sufficiently to my satisfaction to understand what happens when this and that occurs - eg are the floor sensors just to cut supply if there is excessive floor temperature build up? You wouldn't want to let the temperature under the floor limit the temperature in the room, same as you wouldn't want to let your boiler temperature limit room temperature, until the under floor/boiler temperature reached a level that might threaten the cable/boiler, so you have over-riding cut outs. Not asking you to answer this, just thinking out loud. Struck me it might not be the floor sensors controlling the heating rather than the thermostat in the control box which is effectively a room thermostat, in CH parlance. The box I've got has the facility to be set by room or under floor temperature - unless the under floor temperature gets crazy, you'd always opt for room temperature as that's the point of it. Just for your amusement, when our system was running for a couple of cold weeks in January, room temperature of around 24 needed an under floor temperature, with lots and lots of lovely insulating air around the cables, of a blistering 35.
Only other thing I wondered was that if the insulation under the cables is half-decent, does the difference in flooring beyond the insulation make that much difference? Again, not asking you to answer this but loose ends to sort out before mixing up the first batch of adhesive to lay the first tile.
I've got some homework to do to keep my best mate builder on the right track. Good at homework these days. Bought a big bloody ultra HD telly for the kitchen not having bought a telly for about 6 years. God, don't things change? So what I've discovered about Cat 5a vs 6 ethernet, HDMI 1.4 and 2.0, 4k TV signals and so on.... UFH can be cracked.
Thanks as ever
Matt

I think I can.

You seem to be a specific kinda bloke. And I think the one time the floor half heats up, you'd notice it. And it might be annoying.

You can change the pins inside the thermostat controller to inform it which sensor is primary.
Pretty sure you can just tell the stats these days which one is primary. I'm talking out my arse there assuming it's still 1999

So perhaps opt for air and run as you'd suggest. Allow the whole floor to heat at the same time.

 

[Dan]

Christ Dan, is their anything you haven't done.
You should give a thought to a new avatar, some sort of cowboy.

Steady on now. I'm no cowboy. If I'm doing something I endeavour to be the best at it. And I'm not always far off. 🙄

 

[Dan]

Ok, since writing this, Julian and Dan have addressed part of what I queried. Sod it - I'm just going to leave the cooker on with the door open. It's got a timer apparently, although the book's so bloody complicated, none of us has worked out how to use that.
Matt

KISS

Keep it simple stupid.

I like it.

 

[widler]

All EUFH jobs I've done have all had separate stats in each room even when tiles are flowing through , I thought that's how it was done ?

 

[Dan]

All EUFH jobs I've done have all had separate stats in each room even when tiles are flowing through , I thought that's how it was done ?

That is how it's done.

This is the same room though, but different substrates. So the cable can't cross the join (it might cause it to snag or stretch in the future) therefore wise to perhaps run the two heating systems independently. Ones wood and wont get as cold as the concrete side, naturally.

 

[Old Mod]

Hey Matt,
Any progress?