Limestone floor cracking.

[doug boardley]

:lol: I'm just waiting to see if Doug knows what that means...I'm sure he's been called worse

lol as we're not in the inner sanctum, I shan't translate it as I read it:smilewinkgrin:

 

[pollybampton]

A couple of questions now.
1. Is a tiler expected to know if there is a chance of deflection?
Is the person who first visited our house and gave us a cost expected to give advice about possible problems like deflection?
He just keeps saying he didn't do the ply wood, so the "sub floor" is not his responsibility.

Here's a copy of his quote.
Re: Quote for new stone flooring: kitchen & utility (incl. cupboard)
Further to my recent site visit, please find set out below our supply & fit quotation.
Quote includes:
Supply 50 sq.m Fiorito Travertine honed & filled, 610x457x10mm
Flexible adhesive, flexible grey grout & sealer. (colour of grout T.B.C)
Delivery from mill to site.

Costing:
Total £6,445.75

The stone will be fitted to the leg of the new units, the plinths and end panels should be cut to suit, by others, the stone/adhesive. The tiles will be sealed prior grouting and a second coat after.

All sub –floors to be prepared by others, however, we would liaise with Kitchen works to confirm. A hatch will be made in the utility room, a detail to be confirmed.

All prices are including the standard rate of VAT.
We would need approx. 2-3 week from placement of order.
Please ensure that your existing sub-floor is sound, dry, flat and even prior to our works commencing. If the subfloor is not flat we will try to improve this, but will not be responsible for an un-even new floor.
Payment terms: 100% of the materials cost plus 50% of the labour cost at placement of order (£), the balance at completion of works. Please note that we accept most major credit and debit cards.
There may be some additional costs if you wish us to remove existing floor coverings / if work is required to improve the sub-floor prior to fitting your new stone floor
Please confirm the exact width, finishing & grading required at the time or ordering
All stone vary naturally in texture & colour. No sample is representative of the whole range of colour, texture and grade. Stone is sold by description, not by sample. On rare occasions, a minor variation in stone thickness might occur.
We request that the floors are inspected at the completion of our works and accepted and then paid for. Any legitimate snagging works will be immediately undertaken, and at any event, the floors must be passed as acceptable and paid for before any other trades commence work.
Any damage to the floors by other trades after our works are complete will be subject to additional remedial costs.

Thank you for this enquiry, if you have any questions please don’t hesitate to call me at the showroom.

 

[doug boardley]

I think he's covered himself, he states more than once that the sub floor is not his responsibility, and imo, the ply is the sub floor. You could argue that he should have checked it, but initially he put the onus on the pre-tiling fixers.

 

[pollybampton]

So is it the ply wood that is deflecting or the floor underneath?
And my original questions
1. Is a tiler expected to know if there is a chance of deflection?
Is the person who first visited our house and gave us a cost expected to give advice about possible problems like deflection?

 

[mikethetile]

the tilers should still have checked the floor prior to laying as they should be aware that the job will fail if any deflection is present

this is a diificult one not helped by the kitchen fitters going out of business

you really do need to seek legal advise on this as its not at all straightforward, as Doug rightly says the tiling shop expected the subfloor to prepped right before their arrival and was part of the conditions when you accepted their quote but on the other hand they agreed to liase with the kitchen fitters and they accepted the floor as fit to tile

your house insurers might have legal cover , if so a chat with them may get you forward on this matter

 

[hillhead]

It is possible that movement could have been felt under foot! yes the tilers should have known and even recommended ditra matting or similar decoupling.
Who ever prepared the floor ie kitchen men? are responsible IMO

 

[mikethetile]

yes the tilers should have been aware that there was deflection and advised that it wasnt suitable for tiliing putting the onus back on the kitchen fitters to prep the floor properly

a lot of the deflection in the floor is caused by movement in the joists and the joists need to be braced with noggins to take out any bounce. prepping a floor for tiling needs to be done by someone with knowledge of whats required for tiling. asking a chippy with no tiling experiance or knowledge to overboard a floor is asking for trouble as they will follow instructions and simply overboard the floor. this is why tilers take responsibility for prepping the subfloor

 

[pollybampton]

The floor seems very firm and solid. If you jump on it at one end there is a very slight vibration.
Is deflection inherent in the floor boards and joists, or can it be introduced by the plywood?
The kitchen company recommended me to go across the road to the flooring company. Flooring company were happy for Kitchen company to do the floor. They knew the kitchen company to be reputable. They had previously fitted a kitchen for us ( same tradesmen) in a previous house. We're talking a £40k kitchen in the last house. This one was only £20k because we were keeping the original worktops and no appliances were supplied this time. They are qualified joiners, not fly by nights.
Has the person who sold us the floor and visited the site no obligation to tell us of possible issues with stone floors?

 

[doug boardley]

It is possible that movement could have been felt under foot! yes the tilers should have known and even recommended ditra matting or similar decoupling.
Who ever prepared the floor ie kitchen men? are responsible IMO

a decoupler wouldn't have helped with vertical deflection tho Joe, and I'm assuming it's vertical deflection that's caused the problem here and not lateral expansion.

 

[pollybampton]

The joiners have previously done work like this I'm told

 

[hillhead]

a decoupler wouldn't have helped with vertical deflection tho Joe, and I'm assuming it's vertical deflection that's caused the problem here and not lateral expansion.

That's right Doug,as i said earlier the sub floor needs to be exposed and inspected before strengthening which if done right will eliminate any vertical deflection.This all plus the decoupling will all help the finish which is needed IMO

 

[doug boardley]

belt and braces info there Joe

 

[mikethetile]

you really do need to take legal advise

the tiletrs agreed to liase with the kitchen fitters, with proper communication this would have been avoided

if the kitchen fitters are telling the tiling shop that they are experianced at this work then the shop may not have checked the floor before sending tilers over to do the job

the fact remains that filling the tiles isnt going to work as the movement in the floor will break the filler out . this problem isnt going to cure itself

there is movement in the floor and it needs rectifying and retiling

firm legal action is needed to sort this out , both parties have let you down and are refusing to take responsibility

 

[Diamond Pool Finishers]

are they responsible just by recommending the tiler;s??? it sound 50-50 to me!! tiler;s /kitchen fitter;s

 

[White Room]

Personally I would try to get this sorted thru the partys involved with the works prior to anything else but use the legal side as a very last resort IMO