Limestone floor cracking.

[Aston]

you really need to get a structural engineer in. they will work out the load bearing capacities of the floor/joists and confirm whether the weight ratio of the floor is too much..

then you can start to establish who is to blame but legal advice is needed. keep calm at this stage because the people you have used to carry out your work will be on the defensive. denying, passing the buck etc....dont get heated, it aggrevates the situation and you dont get too emotionally involved. be smart and maybe get your camcorder out secretly and see if you can get anything on tape that helps your cause...

1. get a report done
2. see a solicitor

hope this helps

 

[Bolter]

They are qualified joiners, not fly by nights.

I have a very good friend who is a joiner/furniture restorer/kitchen fitter, and is superb at his job. One of the best I would say. BUT, he doesnt understand what I would need for tiling unless explained. If I said "fit me a ply subfloor", he would maybe screw some ply to the floor boards, and on the face of it, looks good. But if there arent screws at 150mm centres, and noggins below for added strength, then the floor would fail. Even a mistake like "I'll use up some of this chipboard" would be a problem.

To be honest, the fault laid with the company who did the sub floor UNTIL the tiling firm laid over it without checking, and now it becomes their fault. If they are willing to 'risk it', then the risk is theirs.

 

[Gazzer]

It could quite possibbly be a case of the floor was solid enough when tiled but since this time something under the floor may have happenend such as a joist cracking or rotten.
I had a job a long time ago now which was perfect for 6 years and then a crack apperared. After a lot of searching the floor came up and it was found that the main water pipe had a small leak which had soaked the joists of over the years. Of course it was all saturated beneath the floor and thats where the damage was done. This job was settled by household insurance and no one was held to blame.

 

[pollybampton]

Hello again, for anyone that's still looking at this thread. A builder friend of mine came and looked at the floor. He doubted there was any deflection. He had been expecting to feel vibration through the floor, but couldn't, even when he jumped on it, and he's no lightweight.
The house is 100 years old. There is the main building, and the kitchen extends out from the main building into what looks like a single storey extension. ( see attachments) I don't think this was an add on extension. Originally it was used as a garage. The floor level was originally a foot or 18 inches below the ground level of the house.We had a look under the floorboards as far as we could.There is access under the main part of the house. The floor is supported by thick timber joists and thick timber floor boards. When I say thick, I mean the builder said that these were much thicker than what you would see today. These in turn are supported on brick walls ( about 4 foot high) that intersect the basement , so that the largest area of unsupported floor area would be no bigger than 3 yards by 3 yards. It's like a maze with small crawl spaces cut in the brick work. It's solid, and there's no movement. When we crawled through to the extension area, there is no access. Just a solid brick wall. It looks as if the subfloor is concrete, with joists and timber floor above. This would make sense if this was originally a garage. So no movement there, or none that can be detected. Which brings us to the plywood. It looks as if the ply is 12mm, and screwed between 200mm and 300m centres, judging by what we can see where pipes are coming in to the kitchen and around the mat well. My builder reckons that 12mm would be OK, as long as the sub floor was sound, although he would always advise against putting stone on any type of wooden floor. This is his experience he's going by.
I have the person from the tile store coming tomorrow morning with the rep from the stone manufacturer. He has finally agreed to come. I'll keep you posted as to how this turns out.

 

[doug boardley]

thanks for the update

 

[HimediA]

Hi Polly

As I'm just about to have Moleanos Limestone laid in our new 7.5m x 5.5m kitchen, and listening to various people talking about different sub-floor requirements I'd be very interested to hear how your situation ended up?

Cheers
Paul

 

[the diving tile]

sorry very late post did not see the five page a head of me

 

[pollybampton]

Hi There,
Now where was I? it was so long ago. Well, the owner of the tile company came out with a tile rep.
Both said it was deflection. (I asked him why he never mentioned the possibility of defection and cracking when he first saw the job. He said the floor appeared fine. )Tile boss stuck to his story that he didn't do the plywood. I countered that I had instructed him to work with the kitchen folk who did the sub floor and he said that he did. I added that the tilers should have said about the deflection, he said they would have but it wasn't apparent. The tile guy then began to question if the floor was fitted properly. I said wouldn't the fitters notice this. He said no. Going round in circles now. I am in a no win situation. Becuase I was foolish enough to allow the kitchen folk to do the sub floor, thinking I was helping out, I'm stuffed. Kitchen folk are bust, Tile man says it's not his fault. Incidentally, the kitchen folk recommended the tile guy!!!
I would have to lift the floor to ascertain if the sub floor was done properly. My wife ain't up for that, and neither am I.
Legally I haven't a leg to stand on. So..
I asked the tile guy if he would do the floor again. He said he would but not for free. We negotiated 2 options. 1st one is that he sends a guy out with an epoxy filler in an attempt to sort the cracks. He will also get a guy out with new cleaning stuff to try and get the floor to look clean again.
If that doesn't work, he will sell us a floor at cost and pay for the fitting. I would prefer this, but it would involve either taking out the whole kitchen and lifting the floor and my wife won't do that. Other option is to fit the floor on top of the existing one, but that screws up the look of the kitchen units re heights etc. Incidentally, we would go back to a wooden floor. Warmer, doesn't crack, easier to clean and maintain.
What have I learned?
Have the one company do everything so that the buck stops in the one place. If the buck gets split, it ain't worth a dime.
Ask if there's a chance that limestone will crack. Will the supplier guarantee against cracking? That's the most important part and something that never occurred to me to ask, and was never raised by the tile guy.
When someone tells you something is easy to keep clean, get a demo first in a similar area and judge for yourself.
I don't think I would ever have a natural stone floor again. This was £6k down the drain, and spoils what should be a spectacular kitchen.
Check your sub floor before any plywood goes on. Reinforce it to prevent movement. The slightest movement will crack it. Get underfloor heating. Nothing will prepare you for how cold a limestone floor is that doesn't have under floor heating.
You have the advantage of knowing about this web site before going ahead with your job. Read thoroughly, ask lots of questions, there's knowledgeable folk here. Good luck.

Hi Polly

As I'm just about to have Moleanos Limestone laid in our new 7.5m x 5.5m kitchen, and listening to various people talking about different sub-floor requirements I'd be very interested to hear how your situation ended up?

Cheers
Paul

 

[pollybampton]

Hello everyone
It's been a while since my last post. We have completed the refurb of the house, and my wife is looking at the kitchen floor and is not happy. For those who don't remember , we have a limestone floor that cracked. It's in a terrible state. Couple of questions. Are we asking for more trouble if we don't rip the floor up and start again? Would porcelain tiles fitted over the top of the limestone, just be as bad? What about wood over the top of the limestone? Am I clutching at straws and should I bite the bullet and start again?
Also, our bathroom upstairs was tiled with one of these electric blanket style forms of underfloor heating. It works well. We fancy it for the kitchen downstairs when we finally decide to renew the floor. Any pros and cons considering what we've been through with the kitchen already? Is it suitable for a wooden floor? Anyone know an amazing tiler in the glasgow area? Thanks in advance. P

 

[White Room]

Try this section of the forum I'm Looking for a Wall and Floor Tiler - Tiles | Floor Tiles | Wall Tiles | Tilers Forum

 

[Shortio]

Hello everyone
It's been a while since my last post. We have completed the refurb of the house, and my wife is looking at the kitchen floor and is not happy. For those who don't remember , we have a limestone floor that cracked. It's in a terrible state. Couple of questions. Are we asking for more trouble if we don't rip the floor up and start again? Would porcelain tiles fitted over the top of the limestone, just be as bad? What about wood over the top of the limestone? Am I clutching at straws and should I bite the bullet and start again?
Also, our bathroom upstairs was tiled with one of these electric blanket style forms of underfloor heating. It works well. We fancy it for the kitchen downstairs when we finally decide to renew the floor. Any pros and cons considering what we've been through with the kitchen already? Is it suitable for a wooden floor? Anyone know an amazing tiler in the glasgow area? Thanks in advance. P

Mr Brampton, I can answer many of your questions regarding existing problems and possibly reinforce your options for new installation. Cheers us.