Poor Tiling Job? Advise please...

[bugs183]

Hiya Vik.
Shame about the job you've had done, it really isn't good, and needs retiling, it's scratched, wonky, poorly grouted and generally not very good, but:
You did employ a builder, and not a tiler. BIG difference.
Mosaics are hard enough to fix on a perfect flat wall with nothing in the way. Kitchen walls are full of sockets, notoriously bumpy and generally awkward for mosaics. Also these mosaics unless you have quality tiling tools are difficult/impossible to cut, the metal mosaics especially. Black grout is vile to use and takes time and experience to get good with, plus as a builder i doubt he would even have known about fine particle grouts.
Horses for courses here i'm afraid and to get a quality job from these mosaics means employing a quality time served tiler, not a builder.

I can understand you are disappointed, but i would be too if i was the builder and my customer text me with a complaint, i'm sorry but a phone call is much better. Then to bombard him with British Standards this early would certainly have annoyed him.

I would say try to phone him and see if you can reach an understanding between you and your builder.

Tiling is a skilled trade and it would be nice if the public understood it for being one rather than getting a builder in and then asking our advice once the job is ruined.

 

[vik987]

Hiya Vik.
Shame about the job you've had done, it really isn't good, and needs retiling, it's scratched, wonky, poorly grouted and generally not very good, but:
You did employ a builder, and not a tiler. BIG difference.
Mosaics are hard enough to fix on a perfect flat wall with nothing in the way. Kitchen walls are full of sockets, notoriously bumpy and generally awkward for mosaics. Also these mosaics unless you have quality tiling tools are difficult/impossible to cut, the metal mosaics especially. Black grout is vile to use and takes time and experience to get good with, plus as a builder i doubt he would even have known about fine particle grouts.
Horses for courses here i'm afraid and to get a quality job from these mosaics means employing a quality time served tiler, not a builder.

I can understand you are disappointed, but i would be too if i was the builder and my customer text me with a complaint, i'm sorry but a phone call is much better. Then to bombard him with British Standards this early would certainly have annoyed him.

I would say try to phone him and see if you can reach an understanding between you and your builder.

Tiling is a skilled trade and it would be nice if the public understood it for being one rather than getting a builder in and then asking our advice once the job is ruined.

t
hanks for your input!

If I was told to begin with they were hard to do and they were not confident with mosaics I would have got someone else in. But looked around for 1 company to manage the whole job to keep things simple but look where I am now big mistake I made! Learn the hard way!

I did not want to throw the legal side at them however as advised by citizen advice as I no idea where we stood as if I had not given it in writing I could have been in bigger mess. As they have not took responsibility.

I am getting quotes to fix job then will contact them again to see if we can solve this without legal side .

 

[bugs183]

Cheers Vik.
That is the problem we are finding, it's almost too easy these days to go and buy any tile from wherever. People get sold stuff with no advise or little understanding of the product and what the fixing procedures.

You are not alone on here with complaints about builders making mistakes, it's always happened and with these forums you get to see it happening more, which is a shame.

Builders should build, and let us tile, the daft thing is 90% of builders don't even enjoy tiling and it shows, so it's false economy them doing it anyway!!!

I hope it gets resolved without too much agro for all parties.

 

[beanz]

t
hanks for your input!

If I was told to begin with they were hard to do and they were not confident with mosaics I would have got someone else in. But looked around for 1 company to manage the whole job to keep things simple but look where I am now big mistake I made! Learn the hard way!

I did not want to throw the legal side at them however as advised by citizen advice as I no idea where we stood as if I had not given it in writing I could have been in bigger mess. As they have not took responsibility.

I am getting quotes to fix job then will contact them again to see if we can solve this without legal side .

The problem is, a lot of these builders have tiled with 10x8, or 4x4 ceramics, and then think they can tile.. I doubt he even knew that mosaics would be more difficult, and as Bugs has said, he certainly wouldn't know about different types of grout.

I think you were advised poorly, and you should've had a face to face chat with the builder, pointing out what you are unhappy with, and hopefully you would've been able to resolve it amicably. He's on the defensive now, so it'll probably have to go to court. You need to be aware though, if he's a limited company, i doubt you'll ever see a penny, so any money you spend out on legal fee's etc. will probably be thrown down the drain.

I hope i'm wrong, and wish you luck Vik :-/

 

[vik987]

The problem is, a lot of these builders have tiled with 10x8, or 4x4 ceramics, and then think they can tile.. I doubt he even knew that mosaics would be more difficult, and as Bugs has said, he certainly wouldn't know about different types of grout.

I think you were advised poorly, and you should've had a face to face chat with the builder, pointing out what you are unhappy with, and hopefully you would've been able to resolve it amicably. He's on the defensive now, so it'll probably have to go to court. You need to be aware though, if he's a limited company, i doubt you'll ever see a penny, so any money you spend out on legal fee's etc. will probably be thrown down the drain.

I hope i'm wrong, and wish you luck Vik :-/

Thanks for your reply, if necessary can go to the small claim court, and am happy to represent myself but worse call I think we have legal cover on house insurance but I really hope it don't come to that. One step at time, just waiting on quotes from tilers and reports then can see what the builders say

 

[chrissyboy71]

Just out of interest, what was the standard of the kitchen work like other than the tiling? Anyone that could leave a job like this to a paying customer deserves being named and shamed on Cowboy Builders or Rogue Traders at least! It is completely unacceptable.
Sorry you've had to go through this.

 

[beanz]

Thanks for your reply, if necessary can go to the small claim court, and am happy to represent myself but worse call I think we have legal cover on house insurance but I really hope it don't come to that. One step at time, just waiting on quotes from tilers and reports then can see what the builders say

Anytime.. I was talking about small claims court Vik. I know a few people that have gone down that route, won their cases, and never seen a penny. All the guys i know were tradesmen that have sub-contracted to other builders, and not been payed.. Hopefully it won't get to that 😉

 

[vik987]

Just out of interest, what was the standard of the kitchen work like other than the tiling? Anyone that could leave a job like this to a paying customer deserves being named and shamed on Cowboy Builders or Rogue Traders at least! It is completely unacceptable.
Sorry you've had to go through this.

The rest of kitchen installation was good work, floor tiling seams fine but larger tiles.
Only had one door scratched which has been replaced and made a mess of drive way which I've asked them to clean as only had drive done before Christmas.

I don't want to name and shame at this stage want to give them the time to correct and put this right and incase it goes to court I have to be aware what I put here. But saying that the rest of work they did was good

 

[chrissyboy71]

So in this reply are they honestly trying to say there is not as big a problem as you suggest?
The way I read it they are basically saying, "You owe us £305, so keep that and use it to repair the job, then everything is fine".
I can't see that mess being made good for that money?

 

[chrissyboy71]

Sorry, I meant in their reply to your email.

 

[vik987]

So in this reply are they honestly trying to say there is not as big a problem as you suggest?
The way I read it they are basically saying, "You owe us £305, so keep that and use it to repair the job, then everything is fine".
I can't see that mess being made good for that money?

yes basically they think we don't need to start from scratch and can just repair the ones that need to. Which I'm no tiler I'm not sure if this is possible so I am getting a tillers professional opinion report to see what they recommend. But I do think its going to be more than £305, which is where we disagree between me and builders..they have relied this evening to say they want to resolve this and as soon as I have a report they will chat to me. So hopefully it may be done without going any further.

 

[Andrew]

Gotta love those pieced in cuts at the socket

I would be worried about those pieces of metal mosaics going behind the socket!

 

[charlie1]

yes basically they think we don't need to start from scratch and can just repair the ones that need to. Which I'm no tiler I'm not sure if this is possible so I am getting a tillers professional opinion report to see what they recommend. But I do think its going to be more than £305, which is where we disagree between me and builders..they have relied this evening to say they want to resolve this and as soon as I have a report they will chat to me. So hopefully it may be done without going any further.

Sorry Vik, Your builder is 100% correct and you are wrong! These tiles can be fixed, but it would be far easier / cheaper to rip it all out and start again

 

[vik987]

Sorry Vik, Your builder is 100% correct and you are wrong! These tiles can be fixed, but it would be far easier / cheaper to rip it all out and start again

If it can be done then I'm happy but whatever way they have to take costs on and most of the metal ones are scratched so how would be get round replacing them as they come in sheets ?

 

[Saltire69]

Disagree with you Charlie, how are u going to sand down all the addy at the back of the scratched mosaics to get them back flat. You'd be there all week. Plus take out grout round them and not damage the other mosaics.

 

[Alan M]

it proabably can be fixed one tile at a time but why waste all that time.
if the builder starts down that road it shows what a niave person they are. they think they can fix one or two and its 100%
to get more metal one they are going to have to buy all the sheets again anyway

i would get some post its and stick them where every issue is. even use different colours for each type of mistake.
id like to see the pic of that

 

[charlie1]

Disagree with you Charlie, how are u going to sand down all the addy at the back of the scratched mosaics to get them back flat. You'd be there all week. Plus take out grout round them and not damage the other mosaics.

my point being, it needs redone!

 

[vik987]

Does anyone on here live local to basildon Essex and would be willing to do a report/ quotation for me?
Mace contacted few tillers but they still get to get back to me to arrange a time they can not very positive I don't think...

 

[vik987]

7.1.9.1
Finished tile surfaces
The surface should be true such that, when checked with a 2 m
straightedge with 3 mm thick feet at each end, the straightedge
should not be obstructed by the tiles and no gap should be greater
than 6 mm.
There are permissible manufacturing tolerances for ceramic tiles
defined in BS EN 14411; certain types of tiles, e.g. extruded or large
format, might have permissible surface flatness irregularities that
cannot satisfactorily be accommodated within the surface flatness
tolerance permitted to the tile installer; this should be taken into
account when evaluating the achievable flatness of a wall floor tiling
installation.
NOTE Where adhesives are used, this degree of accuracy can be
achieved only when the background surface is equally true.

7.1.9.2
Across joints
There should be no appreciable difference in level across joints
(commonly called “lipping”) and the maximum deviation between
tile surfaces either side of a joint, including movement joints, should
be as follows.
a) Joints less than 6 mm wide, 1 mm.
b) Joints 6 mm or more wide, 2 mm.

Is someone able to point me in direction where this is stated online?

trying to find evidence to confirm this however cant find online as have to buy book for standards at £180!

Cant put this into a report without knowing for sure what im writting is true?

thanks

 

[One Day]

Sorry you won't find it online (unless you google "BS5385" and find it through file sharing - not that I am suggesting you do of course!)

My copy is legit, but copyright and watermarks forbid sharing.

 

[vik987]

Sorry you won't find it online (unless you google "BS5385" and find it through file sharing - not that I am suggesting you do of course!)

My copy is legit, but copyright and watermarks forbid sharing.

this is what i thought,

So if i quote this standards am i right in doing so with regards to the job i have had done? dont want it to be wrong incase goes to court

 

[One Day]

The quote is correct but be aware that BS5385 is industry guidance - not law.
It's something to work to but in reality, if any of us here were making 1mm lips across joints less than 6mm - we would not be working to a good standard.
0.2mm is poor, never mind 1mm!

 

[vik987]

The quote is correct but be aware that BS5385 is industry guidance - not law.
It's something to work to but in reality, if any of us here were making 1mm lips across joints less than 6mm - we would not be working to a good standard.
0.2mm is poor, never mind 1mm!

Agree!

The builders have said :

'With regards to the leveling of the tiles. BS 5385-3 states that a 2m straightedge should be used when trying to measure the level of the tiles. Any gap over 3mm is classed as unacceptable'

is what they state true or can i argue the point or am i having to accept this work they have done
​

 

[One Day]

Quote:

7.1.9 Tolerances
7.1.9.1 Finished tile surfaces
The surface should be true such that, when checked with a 2 m
straightedge with 3 mm thick feet at each end, the straightedge
should not be obstructed by the tiles and no gap should be greater
than 6 mm.
There are permissible manufacturing tolerances for ceramic tiles
defined in BS EN 14411; certain types of tiles, e.g. extruded or large
format, might have permissible surface flatness irregularities that
cannot satisfactorily be accommodated within the surface flatness
tolerance permitted to the tile installer; this should be taken into
account when evaluating the achievable flatness of a wall floor tiling
installation.
NOTE Where adhesives are used, this degree of accuracy can be
achieved only when the background surface is equally true.
7.1.9.2 Across joints
There should be no appreciable difference in level across joints
(commonly called “lipping”) and the maximum deviation between
tile surfaces either side of a joint, including movement joints, should
be as follows.
a) Joints less than 6 mm wide, 1 mm.
b) Joints 6 mm or more wide, 2 mm.

End Quote.

Irrespective of the above, you have received poor, sub-standard workmanship!

- - - Updated - - -

Looks like your builders' copy of BS5385 is somewhat out of date!

 

[beanz]

That's basically saying that the floor may not be totally flat, but there should still be no lippage. In other words, you're following the contours of the floor.

 

[One Day]

That's basically saying that the floor may not be totally flat, but there should still be no lippage. In other words, you're following the contours of the floor.

It's applicable to walls and floors.

- - - Updated - - -

There's heaps of BS guidance on substrate prep too. Particularly with prep of substrates for mosaics.

 

[kilty55]

i would use the 1st port of call by taking photos of the job before it is removed as evidence as it simply looks like a pile of poo!! if it looks like that its wrong imo

the cuts are awful the mosaics are squint the grouting is poor never mind this straight edge and all is well the jobs awful

 

[beanz]

It's applicable to walls

Ah yeah, I know.. Forgot which thread I was in lol!?! Thought it was the dodgy floor!?! 😉

 

[charlie1]

The quote is correct but be aware that BS5385 is industry guidance - not law.
It's something to work to but in reality, if any of us here were making 1mm lips across joints less than 6mm - we would not be working to a good standard.
0.2mm is poor, never mind 1mm!

don't want to hijack this thread but that really did wake me up! .2mm is "poor"

 

[ringw]

rip it out start again bill the builder end of , shoddy builders are the bain of my life

 

[SJPurdy]

You should be able to view copies of all the British Stds at your local main library. They may not have hard copies but will be able to view them online. Some libraries (eg worcestrershire) allow you to view them online at home when you have a library membership number. You can only read them at home so you can't print a copy but i think that in the library they may be able to produce a print out of relevant bits (they used to be able to photocopy when they had hard copies so i'm assuming this).
Steve