Removing efflorescence

[TilingLogistics]

What???
You know the amount of efflorescence calls we get. I'd like a nice rounded concise explanation.

Danny,

I thought you were one of the leading experts in this field? After all in the last debate on this subject I thought you were the man who had treated 2000M2 of various substrates for efflorescence?

Why therefore do you want my concise explanation?

Kevin

 

[wetdec]

How about a nice bit of input from your good self danny on the removal of efflorescence....... ...if you gets so many calls ..what do you advise peeps to do.?.....

Well branty go for it nothing to loose m8 when TLogistics became elite we all became equal again..........step up :lol:


tiler

 

[GazTech]

From products tested in the field, we have found the removal of efflorescence on acid sensative tiles eg; marble or limestone, A q u a m i x Eff-Ex was effective. With ceramics and porcelains Lithofin Builders' Clean was effective. I carry both products in the van for these types of calls......Gaz

 

[Branty]

Danny,

I thought you were one of the leading experts in this field? After all in the last debate on this subject I thought you were the man who had treated 2000M2 of various substrates for efflorescence?

Why therefore do you want my concise explanation?

Kevin

You've got me mixed up with someone else. I've never treated effloresence. I didn't know there was such a problem with it till I joined BAL.
----

How about a nice bit of input from your good self danny on the removal of efflorescence....... ...if you gets so many calls ..what do you advise peeps to do.?.....

If it is effloresence, which is not always clear from the intial call, samples are taken of the grout, and sent for analysis.
If the lab tests confirm it's effloresence, then the customer gets a remidial spec from our techincal department. A great service I'm sure you'd agree.
Here's some tips we give for removing it.
Remember, you did ask.

DESCRIPTION

Efflorescence is a crystalline or powdery deposit which forms on the surface of cementitious products. These salts can precipitate out into the surface of bricks, tiles, mortars and grouts. These deposits are chemical compounds which occur when water soluble salts forms on the surface, normally carbonates, sulphates or chlorides of calcium, sodium and potassium. In Portland cements, the most common form is calcium carbonate.

This is a phenomenon which affects the whole of the building industry. In ceramic tile installations, efflorescence takes the form of a whitish deposit which often manifests itself on the surface of the grout lines, most frequently in flooring applications. Visually this will often take the form of a surface stain discolouring the pigmented floor grout during the setting or drying out period, creating light and dark ‘patchy joints’.

In itself efflorescence is not damaging to the grout and the effect is purely aesthetic. Efflorescence is usually encountered in new or recent constructions and is often more likely to appear at certain times of the year in the UK i.e. during colder temperatures.

CAUSE

For salts to form there must be the presence of the three following elements.

• Soluble salts present in the substrate or cement.
• Water must be present.
• Evaporation or hydrostatic pressure, or other force to cause the water and minerals to the surface.

The amount of efflorescence that occurs is related to factors such as:-

· The amount of water present i.e.
- Adding too much water to the grout during mixing.
- Over washing the grout joints with water during the cleaning off process.
· The amount of available soluble salts (normally calcium). and
· Drying times (which are extended in cooler temperatures).

Note: The colder the air temperature, the colder the backgrounds and bases. For any construction material containing cement, the rate of cement hydration and the rate at which residual moisture is lost will be decreased (slowed down), the colder the site temperatures, particularly at temperatures below 10°C. Please also note that BS 5385-4 does not recommended tiling below 5°C.

The longer the moisture is present, the greater the chance of salts dissolving in it and permeating to the surface as the mortar and grout dries out. This is particularly prevalent in any system which contains grey Portland cement.

PREVENTION

To prevent efflorescence from forming you need to eliminate as much as possible any of the above elements.

a) In ground bearing installations, it must be ensured that where possible a suitable vapour barrier is positioned on the sub-floor in the form of a surface DPM (damp proof membrane) which is compatible with the adhesive.

b) There is no moisture trapped within cavities or the sub-floor allowing salts to migrate from the background. The drying time of the grout joints is not extended by covering with polythene or similar material.

c) There is no excessive water being added to the grout which will cause the migration of natural salts within the cement to the grout surface.

BRITISH STANDARDS

BRITISH STANDARD BS 5385 : Part 3 : 2007, the code of practice for the Design and installation of internal and external ceramic and mosaic floor tiling in normal conditions states in Section 11. Cleaning and maintenance

11.3 Efflorescence
“Efflorescence is aggravated by excessively damp conditions following installation or prolonged delay in drying out and may be persistent if it is due to rising moisture where damp-resisting construction (see 6.5.2) is inadequate. The deposit should disappear with washing but may reappear after drying; it should diminish with progressive washing and the most effective treatment is to increase the frequency of washing until the deposit ceases.

Persistent deposits may be treated with appropriate proprietary acidic cleaners, but in such cases the floor should be wetted and the free water removed before the application of the cleaning agent. It is important that this treatment is followed immediately by thorough rinsing with clean water.”



REMOVAL

Efflorescence can normally be removed by washing down with clean potable water. This may need to be repeated where the deposits are light to medium.

Where the salt deposits are heavy they may be removed by the application of a suitable acidic based cleaner such as *Lithofin Builders’ Clean :-
· Pre-wet grout surface with water
· The product can be diluted up to 10:1 with water, however dependant upon how heavy the deposits are, use at a stronger concentration or undiluted, if required.
· Apply with a stiff bristle brush (scrubbing brush) or emulsifying pad and distribute immediately.
· Leave on the surface for up to 10 minutes, but do not allow to dry.
· Work cleaner into grout surface again.
· Wash off with plenty of clean potable water.
· Repeat where necessary.
*NB do not use on polished and honed limestone, marble tiles, concrete stone, terrazzo and hard stone not resistant to acid. Use a suitable non-acidic cleaner i.e. ******* Eff-Ex or equivalent Lithofin product(s).

 

[DHTiling]

Thanks for the input Danny....spot on advice there..........nice long reply just as we like them...........
:yes:

 

[wetdec]

From products tested in the field, we have found the removal of efflorescence on acid sensative tiles eg; marble or limestone, A q u a m i x Eff-Ex was effective. With ceramics and porcelains Lithofin Builders' Clean was effective. I carry both products in the van for these types of calls......Gaz

I believe that Eff ex is not for a long term cristalized efflorecent situation but more of a quick cure to efflorecence when it starts showing itself. I know it is written to protect from further efflorecence which would then make it a cleaner/sealer would it not.

Lithofin Builders clean is as you say good when working with manufactured tiles as its acid, for natural polished, unpolished then Power clean which is alkaline would be good.


tiler

 

[pjtiler]

we used to use diesel on quarry's but that was an sites i would,nt recommend in in a domestic situation

 

[Branty]

Well branty go for it nothing to loose m8 when TLogistics became elite we all became equal again..........step up :lol:


tiler

How do you become an elite member?

 

[TilingLogistics]

The main emphasis regarding efflorescence from both BAL and Mapei viewpoints seems to concentrate on the grout issues.

The effloresence problems that I deal with mainly apply to the natural stone I have been asked to Grind, Hone, Polish, Clean, Restore or Repair.

There are usually large areas involved. The most important factor regarding efflorescence is to find the cause because if you can't find that it will just keep reoccurring. Once I have found the cause provided the efflorescence is not too old (by this I mean hardened) the easiest and quickest removal method I find is to make a wire wool pad and use that. After all you need water to create efflorescence so if you dont use any it can't be created again. Failing this i.e. the salts have hardened or the wire wool has no effect I try various products i have at my disposal according to what material the efflorescence is on. I have in the past resorted to grinding it off. I then clean & treat accordingly with Eff Ex and Hey Presto

Kev

 

[wetdec]

The main emphasis regarding efflorescence from both BAL and Mapei viewpoints seems to concentrate on the grout issues.

The effloresence problems that I deal with mainly apply to the natural stone I have been asked to Grind, Hone, Polish, Clean, Restore or Repair.

There are usually large areas involved. The most important factor regarding efflorescence is to find the cause because if you can't find that it will just keep reoccurring. Once I have found the cause provided the efflorescence is not too old (by this I mean hardened) the easiest and quickest removal method I find is to make a wire wool pad and use that. After all you need water to create efflorescence so if you dont use any it can't be created again. Failing this i.e. the salts have hardened or the wire wool has no effect I try various products i have at my disposal according to what material the efflorescence is on. I have in the past resorted to grinding it off. I then clean & treat accordingly with Eff Ex and Hey Presto
Kev

With all due respect I think your selling us a kipper here.

Efflorecence is created as moisture with salts evaporates. It is found on the surface, those who know building will of seen it repeatedly on old external walls without cavity as they dry outwards.

Moisture and salts come from within, precipitate out and as the solution evaporates the salts crystalise.

With a tiled floor if you wet it then the situation isnt agrivated as the grout is water resistant. To agrivate it the water would have to travel through as far as the sub floor mix with salts then precipitate back out. Its a contradiction water resistant grout / water penitration

BRITISH STANDARDS

BRITISH STANDARD BS 5385 : Part 3 : 2007, the code of practice for the Design and installation of internal and external ceramic and mosaic floor tiling in normal conditions states in Section 11. Cleaning and maintenance

11.3 Efflorescence
“Efflorescence is aggravated by excessively damp conditions following installation or prolonged delay in drying out and may be persistent if it is due to rising moisture where damp-resisting construction (see 6.5.2) is inadequate. The deposit should disappear with washing but may reappear after drying; it should diminish with progressive washing and the most effective treatment is to increase the frequency of washing until the deposit ceases.

Persistent deposits may be treated with appropriate proprietary acidic cleaners, but in such cases the floor should be wetted and the free water removed before the application of the cleaning agent. It is important that this treatment is followed immediately by thorough rinsing with clean water.”



REMOVAL

Efflorescence can normally be removed by washing down with clean potable water. This may need to be repeated where the deposits are light to medium.


There are chemicals available to inhibit, remove efflorecence as mentioned but honing gringing etc etc to get rid of it................Sorry m8


tiler

 

[wetdec]

How do you become an elite member?

You need to be a member who is known for contribution quantity and quality and are very Pro-TilersForums.

Respected members with experience and knowledge of the trade such as Fekin, Gaztech,Grumpygrouter, sWe and others who's words you can trust m8


They are chosen



tiler

 

[TilingLogistics]

With all due respect I think your selling us a kipper here.

Efflorecence is created as moisture with salts evaporates. It is found on the surface, those who know building will of seen it repeatedly on old external walls without cavity as they dry outwards. We are not talking buildings we are talking about floors

Moisture and salts come from within, precipitate out and as the solution evaporates the salts crystalise. What Solution?

With a tiled floor if you wet it then the situation isnt agrivated as the grout is water resistant. To agrivate it the water would have to travel through as far as the sub floor mix with salts then precipitate back out. Its a contradiction water resistant grout / water penitration Who mentioned tiled floors?

BRITISH STANDARDS

BRITISH STANDARD BS 5385 : Part 3 : 2007, the code of practice for the Design and installation of internal and external ceramic and mosaic floor tiling in normal conditions states in Section 11. Cleaning and maintenance

11.3 Efflorescence
“Efflorescence is aggravated by excessively damp conditions following installation or prolonged delay in drying out and may be persistent if it is due to rising moisture where damp-resisting construction (see 6.5.2) is inadequate. The deposit should disappear with washing but may reappear after drying; it should diminish with progressive washing and the most effective treatment is to increase the frequency of washing until the deposit ceases.

Persistent deposits may be treated with appropriate proprietary acidic cleaners, but in such cases the floor should be wetted and the free water removed before the application of the cleaning agent. It is important that this treatment is followed immediately by thorough rinsing with clean water.”



REMOVAL

Efflorescence can normally be removed by washing down with clean potable water. This may need to be repeated where the deposits are light to medium.


There are chemicals available to inhibit, remove efflorecence as mentioned but honing gringing etc etc to get rid of it................Sorry m8


tiler

Tiler,

Your posts are well out of order along with your insinuations. Nobody is selling you anything. All you have done is requote what I have already said and then called me a liar and furthermore I am not your mate either.

Everything I post is work I have done. I have treated efflorescence on a large scale both in this and other countries. I have had to resort to grinding calcified efflorescence from the surface of tiles in a listed building where the floor had to be restored so which part of that don't you or won't you believe.

You cannot get efflorescence on tiled ceramic floors it only occurs in natural materials where the water or moisture as you quote drive the salts through the pores to the surface. That cannot happen on ceramic and vitrified tiles with the exception of the surrounding grout.

How much serious efflorescence if any have you treated? How did you/would you treat solid calcified efflorescence? Lets say 20 years old for example!
#
Kev
----

You need to be a member who is known for contribution quantity and quality and are very Pro-TilersForums.

Respected members with experience and knowledge of the trade such as Fekin, Gaztech,Grumpygrouter, sWe and others who's words you can trust m8


They are chosen



tiler

You should apply then

 

[wetdec]

I havnt called you a liar and I call everyone m8 what I have done is create a little doubt over your statement re efflorescence. You present us with two statements which raise some question as to your understanding despite it having been quite clearly stated by authority. Following these statements you tell us of grinding etc which is at the very least extreme and rare as you can only quote 1 instance in your 12-18 month of repairing floors.

After all you need water to create efflorescence so if you dont use any it can't be created again.
Kev

That would aggravate the problem I am afraid. Water is the driving factor and the main cause of Efflorescence

Kev

BRITISH STANDARDS

REMOVAL

Efflorescence can normally be removed by washing down with clean potable water. This may need to be repeated where the deposits are light to medium.

The most important factor regarding efflorescence is to find the cause because if you can't find that it will just keep reoccurring.Kev

BRITISH STANDARDS

CAUSE

For salts to form there must be the presence of the three following elements.

• Soluble salts present in the substrate or cement.
• Water must be present.
• Evaporation or hydrostatic pressure, or other force to cause the water and minerals to the surface.

Hopefully this information will be of use to and if I come accross a stone floor with surface damage resulting from efflorecence I will indeed call in the professionals as I dont have the kit to grind.


Do hope this clears up my previous post which wasn't written to encourage such an outburst mearly to try and get through to you the 2 points outlined above.

tiler

 

[Branty]

You need to be a member who is known for contribution quantity and quality and are very Pro-TilersForums.

Respected members with experience and knowledge of the trade such as Fekin, Gaztech,Grumpygrouter, sWe and others who's words you can trust m8


They are chosen



tiler

That rules me out then. :yes:

 

[Spud]

the post where tiling logistics said he has removed effloresense by using wire wool pads and grinding the floor back is GOOD ADVICE he was talking about natural stone, some marble and granite with effloresesnse problems CAN sometimes be sorted out by cristallisation
i dont know any of you lads on this forum but the fact you spend your free time researching new methods and talking to each other about the trade suggests that you are good tradesmen and therefore you shouldnt dismiss what another experienced bloke has to say stop argueing about a subject which is so contientious there is not any true guaranteed method of removing effloressense and every situation where it occurs is never the same as any other