Vote Leave Or Vote Remain?

[Just Rizzle]

I should also add that the guy in the video makes it very clear that he doesn't think the EU is perfect by any means.

But he does make it very clear that both sides are using misleading information
"dishonesty on an industrial scale"

they come here as cheep labour under cutting you and me working for min wage. ive lost several jobs to these cheep skates from Poland and Latvia that's why the establishment wants us to stay as for your academic most unis get eu grants to sweetheart them but its our money that's gone to Brussels and we get some back with strings attached
and your delusional if you think the French and Germans consult us they want to rob us look at how many utility companys are owned by the French and Germans

 

[mma]

What is your profession @Slancelot?

 

[One Day]

What is your profession @Slancelot?

Shill.

 

[mma]

Shill.

I had to Google that! But

 

[Spud]

we contribute far more to the eu than what people realise . anti dumping duties on tiles .natural stone . steel
and I am sure several other industries these stealth taxes aren't included on the data about how much we pay into the eu as they go directed to brussels

 

[One Day]

I will guarantee this poll (along with umpteen others on all kinds of internet forums) will end with a dramatically close 55/45 split. Rather than the 85/15 we saw a couple of days ago.

Funny isn't it?!

 

[Slancelot]

they come here as cheep labour under cutting you and me working for min wage. ive lost several jobs to these cheep skates from Poland and Latvia that's why the establishment wants us to stay as for your academic most unis get eu grants to sweetheart them but its our money that's gone to Brussels and we get some back with strings attached
and your delusional if you think the French and Germans consult us they want to rob us look at how many utility companys are owned by the French and Germans

I feel bad for you RayTheTiler.
I don't work as a tiler (as my only other thread on this forum will very clearly show). When I was working full time though, the company I worked for paid us minimum wage whilst they charged clients £600 per day for our work. They did this because they knew if we complained or quit they could easily fill our positions with eager, younger workers who didn't have families to support or mortgages etc. It didn't feel great, so I sympathise with you.

I imagine if I was you, I would be rightly pissed off about losing those jobs and I would probably vote for anyone who told me they could stop it happening again. It probably doesn't make you feel any better knowing that EU migrants contribute more than they take. Because you directly lost out.

However, I just hope that you'd agree that there could be a wider picture. Some people like you will directly lose out. But (if you believe the statistics) many more people will benefit in terms of the wider contribution they make to UK economy. (Their taxes also going towards hospitals, schools, roads etc and presumably money they earn being at least partly spent in shops, pubs supermarkets here).

Looking at the issue with a wider lens the numbers seem (to me at least) to show that our country will be worse off if we leave.

PS I don't know much about academics and EU grants for uni's. But I did learn that foreign students who come here to study contribute £2.3 billion a year to the UK economy (and that's just the ones studying in London).
Overseas students contribute £2.3bn a year to UK, says study - FT.com
They do this presumably because we have world class universities. So I reckon those EU grants are worth it!

 

[Slancelot]

I had to Google that! But

I had to Google it too...

noun
an accomplice of a confidence trickster or swindler who poses as a genuine customer to entice or encourage others.
"I used to be a shill in a Reno gambling club"
​

That's the most eloquent insult I've ever had! I need that on my business card.

 

[Doggit]

Sorry Slancelot, but I've got to disagree with you. The FT is for remaining, so I'd distrust anything they say, but even if they do contribute those sort of sums, they'll still be allowed to come, as they aren't counted for jobs, and have to leave within 6 months of completing their course if they've got no prospect of a job.

As to migrant workers contributing to our economy, anyone on less than 11K, as most low paid workers are, don't pay any Tax or NI, and send money home (which could be why the Polish prime minister didn't want benefits stopped). But non EU migrants working in the NHS etc on 20K salaries, do pay Tax and NI, so contribute to the economy, and they're the one's we want - except if the government had trained more home grown nurses etc, we wouldn't need to bring in non EU migrants, so the real debate shouldn't be about remain or leave the EU, it should be about the ineptitude of the last few governments, who've managed to make a complete and utter mess of our economy, and don't really know what they're doing.

 

[Rich Midge]

I feel bad for you RayTheTiler.
I don't work as a tiler (as my only other thread on this forum will very clearly show). When I was working full time though, the company I worked for paid us minimum wage whilst they charged clients £600 per day for our work. They did this because they knew if we complained or quit they could easily fill our positions with eager, younger workers who didn't have families to support or mortgages etc. It didn't feel great, so I sympathise with you.

I imagine if I was you, I would be rightly pissed off about losing those jobs and I would probably vote for anyone who told me they could stop it happening again. It probably doesn't make you feel any better knowing that EU migrants contribute more than they take. Because you directly lost out.

However, I just hope that you'd agree that there could be a wider picture. Some people like you will directly lose out. But (if you believe the statistics) many more people will benefit in terms of the wider contribution they make to UK economy. (Their taxes also going towards hospitals, schools, roads etc and presumably money they earn being at least partly spent in shops, pubs supermarkets here).

Looking at the issue with a wider lens the numbers seem (to me at least) to show that our country will be worse off if we leave.

PS I don't know much about academics and EU grants for uni's. But I did learn that foreign students who come here to study contribute £2.3 billion a year to the UK economy (and that's just the ones studying in London).
Overseas students contribute £2.3bn a year to UK, says study - FT.com
They do this presumably because we have world class universities. So I reckon those EU grants are worth it!

This is what it's all about, the greater good! The UK punches well above it's weight in so many ways and is a world leader in research. British uni's receive massive grants towards research because 1 our academics are world leaders and 2 because of our standing as one of the big 3 nations of the EU. Withdraw from the EU and that money goes to France or Germany. Imo the biggest issues those voting exit have are our own government created and not EU created.

 

[Slancelot]

Sorry Slancelot, but I've got to disagree with you. The FT is for remaining, so I'd distrust anything they say, but even if they do contribute those sort of sums, they'll still be allowed to come, as they aren't counted for jobs, and have to leave within 6 months of completing their course if they've got no prospect of a job.

As to migrant workers contributing to our economy, anyone on less than 11K, as most low paid workers are, don't pay any Tax or NI, and send money home (which could be why the Polish prime minister didn't want benefits stopped). But non EU migrants working in the NHS etc on 20K salaries, do pay Tax and NI, so contribute to the economy, and they're the one's we want - except if the government had trained more home grown nurses etc, we wouldn't need to bring in non EU migrants, so the real debate shouldn't be about remain or leave the EU, it should be about the ineptitude of the last few governments, who've managed to make a complete and utter mess of our economy, and don't really know what they're doing.

Good answer Doggit.
I'm no expert on tax so that's an interesting point about the low-paid workers earning less than the threshold for tax and NI and therefore not contributing. I think from reading the report though that the figures cover "all migrants workers of working age" (i.e. both low paid and higher paid) so even taking into account the low-paid workers earning less than the threshold, migrants still make a big net contribution as a group.
Study can be read here: http://www.cream-migration.org/files/FiscalEJ.pdf

You mentioned that "non EU migrants working in the NHS etc on 20K salaries, do pay tax and NI so contribute to the economy and they're the ones we want". But isn't the same true of EU migrants earning over 20k and paying tax and NI? Don't we want them too?

I totally agree with you about the lack of training home-grown nurses/doctors etc. It seems like a dreadful failing. Funnily enough, the study I mentioned earlier points the other way to the financial benefits of using nurses and doctors from abroad because we didn't have to pay for their training!

Point taken about the FT. I don't read it, it was just a handy link to the study (by PWC and London First). I wasn't suggesting it was a reason for remain/leave, more just a flippant comment on one of the benefits of EU grants to our universities.

 

[Meddler]

I think even if we knew nothing about it, the fact Obama, David Cameron, John Major and Tony Blair want us to stay in, we probably need to vote out. If they've pulled those two cronies out from the woodwork to do a press release, together, then I think they're worried that we're leaving and their back-handers will stop.

They're using scare tactics now to try and make us vote in. That alone shows there's no truth in their campaigns.

IMO of course.

Hit the nail on the head.

. . . and Osborne will use it as an excuse why his economic policies havnt been fulfilled.

Prior to this debate I supported Cameron and Osborne but they are now trying too hard to win us over. Either this is about personal ego’s or there are a load of issues on the agenda we are not being told about.

 

[jimthetiler]

I am not convinced Dave c really wants us to stay in and the way they have played
both hero and villian,whats goingooooooooooon

 

[Spare Tool]

I am not convinced Dave c really wants us to stay in and the way they have played
both hero and villian,whats goingooooooooooon

Did anyone watch question time with Cameron last night, hmmm food for thought, I'm very slightly swaying today...don't know what the hell to think :|

 

[Time's Ran Out]

That bloke Branson ( love his Virgin chutney) said we should stay in.
Mind you he made his money before we entered the EEC and he doesn't live in my area - some island in the Caribbean.
It's a good thread this.