Who's at fault??

[poynton phil]

I tiled a 38sqm floor, L shaped room with porcelain opus pattern tiles last Aug/sept. When i went to look and measure the job, the customer told me it was going to have £32000 worth of custom built units plus a 4msq island, with granite worktops. The customer informed me that the joists will be supported with brick piers, I think the joists were spaced at 400 - 450mm. I said that the joists will need bracing every 300mm, with extra noggins, and to make sure the edges of the 25mm marine ply lay on a joist, or noggin, and screwed at 150mm centers. The whole floor was tiled, before the kitchen was fitted. I use keraquick with latex plus to fix the tiles.
I got a phone call yesterday saying that 3 tiles had airline cracks in them, and said tiles were in different parts of the room, 1 in the conservatory area, 1 up against the wall units opposite the island, and the other was a 10cm cut going under a radiator on the R/h side of the island. When i went and looked it turns out that there are 7 cracked tiles at the moment, 3 in the conservatory, and 2 in the other places, I think the island as sank, and tbh i think the whole lot will have to come out, and the customer is saying they took my advice, so its my fault. The only advice i gave was to brace the joists at 300mm, and to lay 25mm ply screwed at 150mm, along the joists, and noggins, making sure the edges of the ply are on joists or noggins. He told me about the supports they were using, and i think they haven't supported it enough. It was solid at the time of tiling.
I am absolutly cacking myself that i could be blamed for this. Any advice will be
really be appreciated.

 

[Stewart]

I had a similar situation last year thats being ripped out at the moment. I was responsible for the floor from the chipboard up, but i put in writing that the builder should put additional support under the island that was 8 square metres With granite worktops. A copy of this was given to the builder and the customer and it was agreed that the builder would do this with the construction of the new floor. Couple of months after the job was finished, the problems started to show. It turns out the builder hadn't supported the area for the island and now has to pay for the full re-fit running at about 6 grand at the moment. I was absolved of all responsibility as I had all my paperwork singed showing the recommendations that they had agreed to.

I would have thought your responsible for making the floor suitable to be tiled and the kitchen supplier/fitter should be responsible for making sure the floor is suitable for such a large island. Unless you were asked to prep the floor to be suitable for the kitchen too.

 

[cornish_crofter]

Phil.

Not a good situation for you. All you can do is ensure the floor is suitable for tiling. You were hired to do the tiling and prep work for it. You were not hired to advise on stress requirements for a £30k fitted kitchen!

 

[hillhead]

Not nice Phil.
If you gave the advice and they haven't taken heed then it's not your problem.
You might have to lift a section of tiles and ply etc to get a look at the underside to see if the noggins etc are correct.

 

[poynton phil]

Thanks guys, I never said anything about supporting the island,and the builders did all the prep work, i only tiled, told them to fit the noggins,and to use 25mm ply you can see part of this floor on my website, in the floor section. The 3 tile crack runs under the table
another 2 tiles are cracked in the base unit next to the oven, and the other crack would be from the radiator left of where the pic was taken.

 

[tubs]

Sorry to hear about this have you spoke to the joiner/builder regarding the floor preperation??

 

[Stewart]

It does sound like the floor has dropped due to the island, but you will need to lift a section to look under the floor to inspect and see if the support has been added.

 

[kilty55]

interesting this,as i have a kitchen fit comein gup with granite going in

i may need to look much further into floor strength

 

[poynton phil]

Sorry to hear about this have you spoke to the joiner/builder regarding the floor preparation??

,

Not yet, but i will be very soon though, and i will be cutting a section out soon to so i can see what they did underneath.

 

[Spud]

You gave the correct advice and you were told that support piers were to be installed, so it is the customers responsibility to ensure that their builder had done the work they were paid for ,when you arrived to tile the floor you checked if it was sturdy and it was, some specifications recommend strengthening the joists with plywood(cutting 18mm ply to the depth of the joist and screwing it to both sides which stops them from bending) but this isnt up to you calculate this as this is the job of the structural engineer in my opinion

 

[White Room]

I tend to agree with CC, that is some serious weight sitting on the floor...

Maybe at your cost to get a structural engineer in for advise into the weight issues

 

[nybor62]

have they contacted any one else with regard to the floor i.e who ever laid the floor or the kitch company
or just laying the blame at your self

 

[FreeD]

Hmmm the customer is saying they went on your advice...i'd ignore that. If you didn't do the work to the floor I don't think you have anything to worry about, plus if the problem is to do with the island then its the kitchen fitters responsibility to make sure the floor as adequately supported the same way its your responsibility to make sure the floor is suitable for tiles. I agree with the above, I wouldn't pass the blame onto anybody but say that a structural report is required to a ascertain what went wrong.

 

[Pebbs]

I tend to agree with CC, that is some serious weight sitting on the floor...

Maybe at your cost to get a structural engineer in for advise into the weight issues

No absolutely do not get a structural engineer in for advice, its not down to you to incurr this expense. Phil you listen to me because sometimes I do talk sense.

Firstly it was not your responsibilty to ensure that the substrate could take this load, if the builder had done his part of the works properly he should have got the struct engineer in at the start of the contract to make the recommendations.

Secondly, you offered advice, in good faith, if they had any concerns about the substrate and the load bearing, again it comes down to the fact the struct engineer should have been called in before works commenced.

Thirdly, look at it this way, you are only dressing the floor, what happens below the material laid, is not your problem! If the floor moves, or flexes, its down to the substrate not being able to cope with the weight on top.

If I am in ever in doubt about weight loading, and I am advising you all to do the same...advise the client to get the struct engineer in.

Lynn

 

[cornish_crofter]

I get the impression the customer is trying it on with you Phil.

Now is the time to stick to your guns and state your position. Chances are he's being a bit of a bully or he's just well upset.

I know it's easier said than done but if you stand up to him he may well back down.

Suggest that if he feels he has an issue with you that he puts it in writing, then if necessary you can repeat it here and we can help you out further. I think Lynn may be a QS so she may be able to advise if you ask her nicely

Why do I get the feeling that he's already had it out with the kitchen fitter and builder and they've blamed you?