Who's at fault??

[CJ]

You do need to find out if the customer has contacted the builder & kitchen fitter...........Then maybe set up a meet with all of you to ascertain WHO has done wot, and if the builder did the actual strengthening before ANY works commenced.

 

[poynton phil]

He's not a bully, just very upset , I think i would be too in his situation. I will speak to him tomorrow, and advise him to get a engineer to look at the problem, I will also say to him, that i stand by the advice I gave him, for preping the floor for the tiles, as it isn't the tiles, that have caused this problem imo. And that he should also speak to the kitchen company, and builders if he hasn't already. I will also make sure I'm present when any inspection takes place.

 

[tfs]

He's not a bully, just very upset , I think i would be too in his situation. I will speak to him tomorrow, and advise him to get a engineer to look at the problem, I will also say to him, that i stand by the advice I gave him, for preping the floor for the tiles, as it isn't the tiles, that have caused this problem imo. And that he should also speak to the kitchen company, and builders if he hasn't already. I will also make sure I'm present when any inspection takes place.

If it was me I would try and get a quick look before you all meet together to discuss. There may be an access hatch in the floor somewhere in the house and you could get into the crawl space in order to have a look under the floor to see what sort of support has been added (allows you to go into the meeting informed)

Obviously avoid crawling directly under the island area:lol:

 

[doug boardley]

Phil, did you tile directly onto the ply, or did you use some backer board and/or decoupling membrane?

 

[poynton phil]

Directly on to the ply douge.

 

[doug boardley]

are these cracked tiles likely to be anywhere near joints in the ply Phil?

 

[poynton phil]

I dont think so douge, but i will check the distance between the cracks that should give me some sort of indication, i think.

 

[cornish_crofter]

Worst case scenario, you may just have to remove a small area of the ply from the joists and hence only a few tiles just to get access to underneath the island, or even remove the island and work on the floor area underneath. It wouldn't be a major job to build a solid pillar under it, or the other option would be to dig out, pour footings where the island is to go back then reinforce with a 4x2 structure. then you wouldn't have to rip the whole floor out

 

[Rob Z]

Hi there Phil,

One thing to keep in mind is that they (the owner, the builder) can say all they want that it's your fault, but it's another thing for them to demonstrate this with solid engineering advice and analysis.

The builder might have over loaded the floor, over spanned the joists, the mechanical trades might have hacked up some joists...who knows until the structure is analyzed.

I agree with Pebbs that you should not spend your money defending yourself at this point. Let them make the first move and put their money on the line by hiring a professional engineer. All you can do is pop up some tiles to see if your coverage and bond was good.

Getting to the cause of all of this is outside the expertise of everyone here, the owner and the builder.

 

[Rob Z]

Gary knows about this one......but in the past few years, the Tile Council of North America has added in their handbook the disclaimer that says all structural issues and determinations for a structure's suitability for tile are to be made by others: engineers, architects, builder. The handbook explicitly states that the tile setter is not qualified and should not be consulted for these issues.

What do the tile trade authorities in the UK have to say about this topic?

 

[Tenchman]

I agree with Lynn & others, although tiles can be part of the architectural framework of a house,they are usually there for aesthetic reasons not as part of the structural framework.
As such any surface you tile on is something that you need to be satisfied will accept the weight of your work. e.g. loadbearing on a wall that is mechanically fixed can accept more weight than a non -mecanically fixed board.

Same with floors but your responsibilty does not extend to working out the weight loads for a granite topped kitchen units and islands.

You may be getting panicked into an unwise move = admitting responsibilty for something that isn't your fault.
Stand your ground tell them yes you can see that the tiles are cracked , however it takes a hell of a lot of stress somewhere like 10,000 newtons per sq inch to make a tile split sideways , if the floor has dropped it is less .

if the client gets a structural engineer in ( at their expense not yours) he will be able to tell if the cracks are caused by a drop in the floor caused by too much weight and not enough support. or if the floor has shifted sideways again caused by pressure splaying the supports.

Hold firm and don't panic the client is trying to cause you to accept blame which is rubbish. you are applying a cosmetic finish to a structure which is not your responsibility that is down to the builder.

Good luck but hold firm chhers Steve

 

[Rob Z]

Well said, Steve.

 

[poynton phil]

As my problem is now been going on a while, i thought i would update you all.

Spoke to the customer next day, said i would come and remove the tiles, cut inspection holes in ply and have a look at whats been done underneath, and for him to inform the builders, and maybe get a structual enhgineer to look at it. That was a no on all accounts

Then he said, were the tiles fitted correctly, was the adhesive mixed properly, and he is a engineer, (he works for areospace) and he couldn't see how the island could cause a crack, in the conservatory nearly 2.5m away. Also there would be no point speaking to the builders, as they would say they done everything right.

I then said, that i could not see any point in taking up the tiles, and replacing them, without finding out the cause of the cracks.
To that he got a bit grumpy, saying well if you dont want to remove the tiles....

We ended up agreeing to take up the tiles, and if they were not fitted correctly, then i would hold my hands up, fair enough i said, as long as he is present at the time, so we have arranged that on wednesday this week the tiles will come up

He then phoned me at the weekend, saying the cracks seem to be lined up where joints in the ply could be, I said i thought that, but the joints are supported with the extra noggins i told you to have fitted, then he tried to tell me that i said, that extra noggins weren't needed in the conservory, what b*******, no way did i say that, and put the phone down on him.

Then today i get a email, saying the floor as now cracked all the way across in the conservatory, and would i agree to a meeting on site with
the builders there, and that they will cut holes so that i can view under the floor with a inspection mirror.

Hopefully now we can get to the root of the problem., and i'll let you know how it goes on wednesday.

 

[Spud]

Thanks for the update Phil and good luck with the meeting, stand your ground and take plenty of photos, dont say too much just make your own observations without being drawn into any arguements, write a report and then send a copy of your findings to the customer and the builder,all the best Gary

 

[White Room]

I still feel that no one is going to get an engineer in to check the problem, if the worst comes to it I would still get an guy to check IMO.