Anhydrite Screed Question

[Element]

I have a problem developing with tiles laid over water UFH in anhydrite screed. A few tiles are sounding hollow and are slowly becoming loose. The floor was 'scarified' using an orbital floor machine with a rotating disc with points underneath. The floor was then treated with a primer apparently suitable for anhydrite screeds ( Prime Plus | Flexible Primer & Bonding Agent | Tilemaster Adhesives ) following its precise instructions. The tiles were then laid using a 10mm bed of standard Tilemaster Setaflex.
I have been told that anhydrite screeds should actually be sanded and then primed and I'm now wondering whether the scarfyer process wasn't adequate for the primer to give sufficient bond strength for the adhesive? It was the first and only occasion I have laid tiles over water UFH. I am returning to the client tomorrow to offer to lift a tile to look at what has happened beneath...

Your opinions would be appreciated!

 

[hmtiling]

Any reason you didn't use Anhyfix?

 

[hmtiling]

What are the tiles?

 

[White Room]

Setaflex bothers me....

 

[One Day]

Setaflex bothers me....

cement onto gypsum bothers me! what was the moisture content, how deep the screed, how long down.... So many checks needed before fixing to anhydrite. And extra checks needed if going cement without an uncoupler.

 

[Chalker]

As above. Firstly was the screed commisioned and dry before tiling?

 

[Lee@emctiles]

i dont have an issue with the use of the setaflex, as this WAS the way alot did it before TM came out with Anyfix.

FYI here is the technical data sheet for Anyfix

 

[Element]

I had never heard of Anyfix until today.

However the update is the screed was 50mm deep, left to dry six weeks before the screed company scarified the surface (IMO, they did a pretty poor job too) I then applied the primer and tiled on top. No moisture reading was done; I didn't know (then) a reading was necessary, and have never used a moisture meter & nobody mentioned it at the time despite my asking as much info as I could locally with suppliers & builders.

I spoke with TM today and they said that an anhydrite screed should dry for 7-10 days and then be sanded to allow the moisture to escape. The screed company didn’t do this. Then in an ideal world the UFH should be commissioned incrementally to further aid the screed to dry and only when the floor is dry should the priming & tiling be done. The plumbers didn’t commission the UFH until 3 weeks after the tiling was completed.

Today I lifted one tile and found the adhesive fully bonded to the tile and the primer; the tile pieces came up with the adhesive & primer intact as one leaving the anhydrite floor clean beneath. The primer under the tile was damp to the touch. Now I know why; the floor was not adequately dry when the primer went down and further sealed the moisture in. With the UFH on now, the moisture is causing the bond of the primer to the screed to fail and the tiles are loosening up. I suspect the whole lot will need to be removed and the floor fully dried out before another covering goes back down.

It’s been a bad day.

 

[J Sid]

Thanks for the truthful update.

 

[Chalker]

Feel for you!

As more liqud screed us used, your problem is becoming more frequent.
Maybe all tradesmen should reaserch before fitting to any surface and be sure they are using the correct methods.
But as usual.it's normally a case of, until it happens to you.

I think the onus should be down to the screed companies. They should supply a simple data sheet with every pour, to say drying times and ufh comisioning . Then info on processes before and during laying flooring.

 

[Bill]

Feel for you!

As more liqud screed us used, your problem is becoming more frequent.
Maybe all tradesmen should reaserch before fitting to any surface and be sure they are using the correct methods.
But as usual.it's normally a case of, until it happens to you.

I think the onus should be down to the screed companies. They should supply a simple data sheet with every pour, to say drying times and ufh comisioning . Then info on processes before and during laying flooring.

I have said this for years - it should be the tile & adhesive manufactures priority to make sure everything fits together with new products. How many add ons do we get? a primer for this - a primer for that - c'mon guys, get it together for us poor tilers.

 

[J Sid]

I have come close to doing one of these floors beginning of last year, 300 m2 with ufh. Customer doing a fast build, did site visit the day before the screed was due to be done because he told me the it was being 'pumping in the liquid' tomorrow. On hearing this I got concerned. Turned out it was to be an anhydride screed, he wasn't told about drying times or procedures for finishing , one area was around the swimming pool which didn't sound right. I told him, he cancelled them and a couple of days later had three gangs of floor screeders with pumps on the job, done in a day. At about 70% of the cost.

 

[On one]

Feel for you!

As more liqud screed us used, your problem is becoming more frequent.
Maybe all tradesmen should reaserch before fitting to any surface and be sure they are using the correct methods.
But as usual.it's normally a case of, until it happens to you.

I think the onus should be down to the screed companies. They should supply a simple data sheet with every pour, to say drying times and ufh comisioning . Then info on processes before and during laying flooring.

I haven't come across an Anhydrite screed yet,but I wholeheartedly agree that customers and tilers need to be better informed by the screed companies.

 

[Just Rizzle]

expensive lesson on anhydrite screeds you wont be the last . another question why didn't you use a decoupling membrane?

 

[hmtiling]

The screed company who solely does gypsum screeds on the isle of wight gives terrible advice to all their customers. They say it doesn't need sanding or decoupling even with ufh and stone! This means i always have a nightmare trying to convince the customers otherwise. In fact I'm naming and shaming Mayhew Easyscreed for their p*** poor advice!

 

[Just Rizzle]

if the screed companies told the truth about drying time etc no one would put these floors down ive said be for we are going backwards not forwards

 

[On one]

Sorry for my naivety,but do you have to sand the floor if you want to lay other types of floor coverings?

 

[Just Rizzle]

only when applying adhesives that has to be stuck down I believe.
when we do vinyls such as amtico or karndean we sand then skim over with anhydrite leveller I never use cement based adhesives on anhydrite (calsiun sulphate ) based screeds.

 

[White Room]

Still have never seen one of those floor...

 

[Rich Midge]

Still have never seen one of those floor...

How is that possible?!

 

[White Room]

How is that possible?!

Believe me it's true, a lot of work I seem to get is refurb so existing s/c screeds is what I work on.

 

[Just Rizzle]

Still have never seen one of those floor...

got 3 to do in next 5 weeks total of 250 mtrs 2 with natural stone and one with 800x800 porceline over 120mtrs will decouple all using ditra and will sand and stick the ditra down with tilemaster anyfix I then screed over the ditra then stick the tiles with tilemaster flexi addy .
it is my tried and trusted method that gives my clients the confidence to trust me to lay there floors ,and recommend me to there friends and family, for 75 percent of my work is by word of mouth.

 

[One Day]

got 3 to do in next 5 weeks total of 250 mtrs 2 with natural stone and one with 800x800 porceline over 120mtrs will decouple all using ditra and will sand and stick the ditra down with tilemaster anyfix I then screed over the ditra then stick the tiles with tilemaster flexi addy .
it is my tried and trusted method that gives my clients the confidence to trust me to lay there floors ,and recommend me to there friends and family, for 75 percent of my work is by word of mouth.

do you check moisture levels ray?

 

[hmtiling]

Why would you screed over the ditra?

 

[Just Rizzle]

that is the first thing I do. i have a sovereign meter and it has a light system red, amber, green. if its not green its a none starter. I test the floors on a regular basis so the client can see well in advance if his floor will be ready for the dates we have booked in all the floors I have got lined up are all green but they were all laid in October last year and have been commissioned and working.

 

[Just Rizzle]

Why would you screed over the ditra?

yes.
I skim over with a flexi slc usually tilemasters then fix with a flexi addy after priming the screed
I do this so the ditra dosnt get squashed working on top of it so loosing its strenght

 

[White Room]

that is the first thing I do. i have a sovereign meter and it has a light system red, amber, green. if its not green its a none starter. I test the floors on a regular basis so the client can see well in advance if his floor will be ready for the dates we have booked in all the floors I have got lined up are all green but they were all laid in October last year and have been commissioned and working.

You saying your customers will wait a year for you to fix there tiles ?

 

[hmtiling]

yes.
I skim over with a flexi slc usually tilemasters then fix with a flexi addy after priming the screed

I've seen the voids in ditra\durabase filled in once before tiling on top. I know this isn't recommend by either company and the only reason i can think of is to speed up laying the floor when prep is priced separately. Is that why you do it ray?
Imo it's just another bond that doesn't need to be there, and therefore jeopardises the uncoupler doing it's job properly

 

[Just Rizzle]

You saying your customers will wait a year for you to fix there tiles ?

were did you get a year from?
a deal with a few builders they say there building a house etc and give an estimate time when they want it tiled and I tri to oblige .
seeing a guy next week whose planning to build 9 5/4 beds recons tiling will be required from sept till dec

 

[Just Rizzle]

I've seen the voids in ditra\durabase filled in once before tiling on top. I know this isn't recommend by either company and the only reason i can think of is to speed up laying the floor when prep is priced separately. Is that why you do it ray?
Imo it's just another bond that doesn't need to be there, and therefore jeopardises the uncoupler doing it's job properly

the reason I do it is to stop the ditra from been squashed an damaged kneeling all over the floor as you lay your sqashing the day lights out of it