A big flooring problem!

[Rob Z]

Hi again,

I just did the calculator thing for meters to feet, and agree that there's no need for a joint in the field for a floor ~16.5' X ~13' (sorry, can't think in metric:smilewinkgrin: ). I do think it's extremely important for there to be a clear joint all the way around the room, especially because of the in floor heat and especially if the floor is situated such that there is solar gain because of windows, doors, skylights.

I know you said there are expansion joints there, but have you verified that they are clear of all mortar, grout, etc? I do a fair number of inspections and find that almost always when tiles are debonded that the fields of tile are solid grouted around changes of plane, perimter of the room, and so forth. This is not the only cause of tiles debonding but it certainly doesn't help the installation.

As someone else mentioned, what is the coverage and bond of the setting bed like on these tiles? If you haven't done so yet, you should get a few pulled to see what the underside of the tiles look like. Consider hiring one of the pros on the forum to come and help you with this. It's quite clear if you know what you're looking for in a situation like this.

Hello! Perhaps my post wasn't clear re expansion joints: the room is approx 5metres by 4metres and there are expansion gaps around every edge, and around a support pillar at one point in the room. I've read re the requirements of 'man-made' expansion joints, but internet sites seem to suggest this is only necessary when there is a single, unbroken length over 10metres (?) The gaps around the edge of the room have never 'closed' or appeared to suggest there isn't sufficient room to expand - or do I have that completely wrong?
Thank you!

 

[Gazzer]

So its alll sounding that it could well be delamination between mat and screed ? This is where we need clarification. It sounds that way to me anyway.
If i recall from early in the thread a different adhesive was used to actually the mat to the screed ?

 

[doug boardley]

what were the back of the tiles like? were they riven or smooth? If they were riven I'd have back-buttered them, if they were smooth I'd have back-skimmed them. Just a thought.

 

[jay]

So its alll sounding that it could well be delamination between mat and screed ? This is where we need clarification. It sounds that way to me anyway.
If i recall from early in the thread a different adhesive was used to actually the mat to the screed ?

think you are onto the problem Sir Ramic sound like its debonded pics would help (might be the PVA)

 

[vosnack]

So I might have been right ;P (with my wild early guess)
But seriously I noticed that some tradesmen do not distinguish PVA from other primers. For them primer is simply dearer PVA from fancy manufacturer. I personally think there is more than one fault with this work. First is the NEW screed which for some reason starter cracking(maybe wrong mix?), second is possible use of PVA prior to Ditra instalation. Obviously it's all hypotetical. It's unfortunate that them 2 fault occur on the same 'level' so to speak. It may be difficult to determine where lays the problem. The tiler will say that something's wrong with screed, the PLASTERER(who's done the screed) will say something wrong with PVA priming of the screed.

 

[Alberta Stone]

Until we get some detailed pictures we are all just shooting in the dark.

 

[Bathfix Bob]

Sorry guys its only me bringing the thread back up...

Gutted! No conclusion!

I've been busy for a while so not had time to log on so I'm catching up on some nice juicy threads.

 

[hpandlou]

Apologoies for not posting anything new - floor coming up next week, so should know more then as to cause.
Many thanks

Sorry guys its only me bringing the thread back up...

Gutted! No conclusion!

I've been busy for a while so not had time to log on so I'm catching up on some nice juicy threads.

 

[bosh]

This is an interesting thread which has similarities to problems i am having.
I mostly work for major housebuilders and have had these problems on wooden floors.
I would be interested to know if,when you lift a tile you find that its fixed well to the matting and you are left with just the fleece from the back of the matting stuck to the adhesive which is stuck soundly to the screed,in other words the matting itself has separated.This seems to cause the crunchy sounds.
We have multiple failures and can only conclude that the problem is either the matting itself has failed,or excessive movement has caused the matting to fail.
Dural do have a system to solve the problem if separation has occured between the fleece and the plastic upper.
Hope this helps.

 

[kiwi Mark]

This is correct Dural are coming to look and hopefully fix my problem but it does put a little bit of doubt on using this product again ? It has happened twice to me now

 

[jay]

Apologoies for not posting anything new - floor coming up next week, so should know more then as to cause.
Many thanks

thanks for the update just wondering who made the call to rip it up

 

[hpandlou]

We did - the whole floor is now affected, and the only way we can sort is by starting to take it up. I have a tiler blaming the screeder and a screeder blaming the tiler, so both will be here. We think the dural has uncoupled from the screed, but we don't know why. Until we do, we won't know what we can do to fix it. Hopefully, we'll get some answers.

thanks for the update just wondering who made the call to rip it up

 

[Gazzer]

Have you contacted Dural ? I can see an ongoing argument between screeder and tiler and no one will ever find the true answer.

 

[Ajax123]

If the tiles and the dural come up clean away from the screed leaving the screed completly intact I would suggest tiler error.

If when the dural comes up you get lumps of screed attached to it then I would be screeder error.

I have only seen Dural delaminate on a couple of occasions, once where the screed was simply too dirty for the adhesive to stick to it and once where the adhesive failed to set (dispersion type used)

Installation issues with the screed could include Lack of compaction, lack of cement, mix too dry, mix too wet, Mix over-retarded, screed not cured properly. All of these will manifest them selves similarly with a weak friable screed.

will leave the tilers to comment on potential issues with the Dural installation.

 

[Scott]

What if the primer used was PVA, would it sweat underneath causing it to become 'live' again?