A big flooring problem!

[Rob Z]

Hi again,

I just did the calculator thing for meters to feet, and agree that there's no need for a joint in the field for a floor ~16.5' X ~13' (sorry, can't think in metric:smilewinkgrin: ). I do think it's extremely important for there to be a clear joint all the way around the room, especially because of the in floor heat and especially if the floor is situated such that there is solar gain because of windows, doors, skylights.

I know you said there are expansion joints there, but have you verified that they are clear of all mortar, grout, etc? I do a fair number of inspections and find that almost always when tiles are debonded that the fields of tile are solid grouted around changes of plane, perimter of the room, and so forth. This is not the only cause of tiles debonding but it certainly doesn't help the installation.

As someone else mentioned, what is the coverage and bond of the setting bed like on these tiles? If you haven't done so yet, you should get a few pulled to see what the underside of the tiles look like. Consider hiring one of the pros on the forum to come and help you with this. It's quite clear if you know what you're looking for in a situation like this.

Hello! Perhaps my post wasn't clear re expansion joints: the room is approx 5metres by 4metres and there are expansion gaps around every edge, and around a support pillar at one point in the room. I've read re the requirements of 'man-made' expansion joints, but internet sites seem to suggest this is only necessary when there is a single, unbroken length over 10metres (?) The gaps around the edge of the room have never 'closed' or appeared to suggest there isn't sufficient room to expand - or do I have that completely wrong?
Thank you!

 

[Gazzer]

So its alll sounding that it could well be delamination between mat and screed ? This is where we need clarification. It sounds that way to me anyway.
If i recall from early in the thread a different adhesive was used to actually the mat to the screed ?

 

[doug boardley]

what were the back of the tiles like? were they riven or smooth? If they were riven I'd have back-buttered them, if they were smooth I'd have back-skimmed them. Just a thought.

 

[jay]

So its alll sounding that it could well be delamination between mat and screed ? This is where we need clarification. It sounds that way to me anyway.
If i recall from early in the thread a different adhesive was used to actually the mat to the screed ?

think you are onto the problem Sir Ramic sound like its debonded pics would help (might be the PVA)

 

[vosnack]

So I might have been right ;P (with my wild early guess)
But seriously I noticed that some tradesmen do not distinguish PVA from other primers. For them primer is simply dearer PVA from fancy manufacturer. I personally think there is more than one fault with this work. First is the NEW screed which for some reason starter cracking(maybe wrong mix?), second is possible use of PVA prior to Ditra instalation. Obviously it's all hypotetical. It's unfortunate that them 2 fault occur on the same 'level' so to speak. It may be difficult to determine where lays the problem. The tiler will say that something's wrong with screed, the PLASTERER(who's done the screed) will say something wrong with PVA priming of the screed.

 

[Alberta Stone]

Until we get some detailed pictures we are all just shooting in the dark.

 

[Bathfix Bob]

Sorry guys its only me bringing the thread back up...

Gutted! No conclusion!

I've been busy for a while so not had time to log on so I'm catching up on some nice juicy threads.

 

[hpandlou]

Apologoies for not posting anything new - floor coming up next week, so should know more then as to cause.
Many thanks

Sorry guys its only me bringing the thread back up...

Gutted! No conclusion!

I've been busy for a while so not had time to log on so I'm catching up on some nice juicy threads.

 

[bosh]

This is an interesting thread which has similarities to problems i am having.
I mostly work for major housebuilders and have had these problems on wooden floors.
I would be interested to know if,when you lift a tile you find that its fixed well to the matting and you are left with just the fleece from the back of the matting stuck to the adhesive which is stuck soundly to the screed,in other words the matting itself has separated.This seems to cause the crunchy sounds.
We have multiple failures and can only conclude that the problem is either the matting itself has failed,or excessive movement has caused the matting to fail.
Dural do have a system to solve the problem if separation has occured between the fleece and the plastic upper.
Hope this helps.

 

[kiwi Mark]

This is correct Dural are coming to look and hopefully fix my problem but it does put a little bit of doubt on using this product again ? It has happened twice to me now

 

[jay]

Apologoies for not posting anything new - floor coming up next week, so should know more then as to cause.
Many thanks

thanks for the update just wondering who made the call to rip it up

 

[hpandlou]

We did - the whole floor is now affected, and the only way we can sort is by starting to take it up. I have a tiler blaming the screeder and a screeder blaming the tiler, so both will be here. We think the dural has uncoupled from the screed, but we don't know why. Until we do, we won't know what we can do to fix it. Hopefully, we'll get some answers.

thanks for the update just wondering who made the call to rip it up

 

[Gazzer]

Have you contacted Dural ? I can see an ongoing argument between screeder and tiler and no one will ever find the true answer.

 

[Ajax123]

If the tiles and the dural come up clean away from the screed leaving the screed completly intact I would suggest tiler error.

If when the dural comes up you get lumps of screed attached to it then I would be screeder error.

I have only seen Dural delaminate on a couple of occasions, once where the screed was simply too dirty for the adhesive to stick to it and once where the adhesive failed to set (dispersion type used)

Installation issues with the screed could include Lack of compaction, lack of cement, mix too dry, mix too wet, Mix over-retarded, screed not cured properly. All of these will manifest them selves similarly with a weak friable screed.

will leave the tilers to comment on potential issues with the Dural installation.

 

[Scott]

What if the primer used was PVA, would it sweat underneath causing it to become 'live' again?

 

[jay]

as alan says if it comes of clean of screed its the tilers prob poor prep work wrong primer would appreciate some pic thanks

 

[Rich]

Just another thought, I have seen tilers putting Ditra down with a 4mm trowel that has been used to much and has worn down to the nub! Tiled over it and then the tiles lift and crack. Perhaps the mat was never bedded down properly in the first place.

Look forward to seeing what happens when the tiles are taken up. Please keep us posted

 

[waterfd]

Have you had a resolution to your problem?
Rgds Des

 

[BubblesTiling]

Have you contacted Dural ? I can see an ongoing argument between screeder and tiler and no one will ever find the true answer.

I have 8 bathroom floors and 40m2 kitchen floor being sorted out by dural at the moment (all on timber floors all installed as per manufactures instructions). I was told by them not to use the original yellow matting any more as there is a fault with it, they now have a new version of the matt from a diferent manufacturer still yellow but with 2 different shapes in the plastic and new fleece also 2 top mesh layers in opposing directions one of which is green seems better. I had a problem with 1 floor over 12 months ago that Dural fixed for me but didnt tell me there was an ongoing issue with the matting. I have been using this matting for 2 years now and I believe there are more problems still to come.

 

[The Legend; Phil Hobson RIP]

I have 8 bathroom floors and 40m2 kitchen floor being sorted out by dural at the moment (all on timber floors all installed as per manufactures instructions). I was told by them not to use the original yellow matting any more as there is a fault with it, they now have a new version of the matt from a diferent manufacturer still yellow but with 2 different shapes in the plastic and new fleece also 2 top mesh layers in opposing directions one of which is green seems better. I had a problem with 1 floor over 12 months ago that Dural fixed for me but didnt tell me there was an ongoing issue with the matting. I have been using this matting for 2 years now and I believe there are more problems still to come.

Hi Bubbles, when you say timber floors. Do you mean 15mm/18mm ply? not T&G or chipboard? I would never use a decoupling membrane on anything but ply 15mm minimum.

 

[BubblesTiling]

Hi Phil, I have used the membrane on all floor types only after speaking to the suppliers who told me there would be know problem, I wouldnt normaly tile onto any timber other than ply, but was assured it would be ok onto T & G and chipboard with the correct priming prior to fitting though I am regretting it now. Although Dural have been very good and have held there hands up and are sorting out the issues without ripping up the floors. All of the tiles and the grout joints are perfect no breaks or cracks just a strange crunchy noise under foot!!!

 

[Scott]

So the failures you have are susceptible to lateral deflection? From that it would appear that maybe there is a problem with it as they could quite easily put it down to installer error as their own instructions recommend screwing floor boards and over boarding where necessary.

 

[BubblesTiling]

I would always secure all floor types regardless, with good quality screws preferably 80-100mm straight into joists to pull it tight. theres no point tiling onto a floor if it has movement prior to instalation.I believe my problems are from settlement in renovated properties. I have the same problem in 2 houses 4 bathrooms in each all fitted as per manufacturers instructions, the fault seems to be inherent in the matting as the Dural Rep has told me never to use the original matting again even though I still have some left over.

 

[The Legend; Phil Hobson RIP]

Hi Bubbles, I am sorry to hear you have had these problems. I rate Dural ci mat greatly, but mostly for it's decoupling capabilities ( lateral movement etc) especially over ufh. I do not think it offers much in the way of overcoming deflection ( bounce) on timber floors. I would never tile on T&G or chipboard without overboarding. Good luck with it.

 

[BubblesTiling]

Hi Bubbles, I am sorry to hear you have had these problems. I rate Dural ci mat greatly, but mostly for it's decoupling capabilities ( lateral movement etc) especially over ufh. I do not think it offers much in the way of overcoming deflection ( bounce) on timber floors. I would never tile on T&G or chipboard without overboarding. Good luck with it.

Thanks Phil,

I use Dural for most jobs now especialy as people like the idea of not having floor height issues, no big step like if you have to overboard rooms, the new product does seem to be much more robust than the original, have you used it yet?
How are you getting on with the drytreat? I find it much better than most other products and customers realy like the guarantee. Much easier to use as well, though you do have to lay it on thick to use the recommended amounts as set out on the web site. Bit of a way to get extra sales me thinks.

Cheers

Warren