Adjudication and BS5385 for bad tiling work

[nybor62]

there should at least have been an expansion joint running through the centre of the room as well as the perimeter, i think 40m2 bays is the max in this instance, although sometimes people don't like expansion joints especially on a multi sized format tile. we have just completed a project with wet UFH system to a college atrium with bays as mentioned above, ditra matting and then fixed with mapei 2 part adhesive, touch wood no cracks.

with under ufh the bay area for expansion should be no bigger than 25m2

 

[DHTiling]

The Heating MUST be commissioned before tiling commences.. this allows the screed to expand with the first heating and any mayor cracking will occur then.

4 weeks is not enough drying time for the screed either.. 6 to 7 weeks would be more like it but as you say an uncoupling membrane would have made it quicker to tile on but not a necessity regarding Bs5385 standards.

BS5385 is a standard and not a regulation but producing the Standards will be taken into consideration if working practises are well below what should have been done.

we cannot advise what legal route to go down and as mentioned that is o nly for a legal person/company to decide if it is worthwhile you doing so .

But from what you have said the installation has been rushed.

 

[Pebbs]

'Puts my specification head on'

Under the terms of a JCT contract the appointed architect should have known that the legal requirement for any area over 50m2 has to have in place a movement joint. This applies only to one open area, should the areas be broken up into diff divisions then it should be agreed between the sub-contractor, main contractor, architect and client the best practice placement of such joints.
The sub-contractor can advise all the relevant parties of the above information, but is not responsible for any defects that should arise, if this advice is ignored.
The architect appointed by the client has a due and diligent responsibilty as the clients representative to ensure that the appointed contractor follows the specification and should any queries arise along the way, then confirm in writing the correct procedure and approvals as such.
As you quite rightly pointed out you can not take action against the architect for legal reasons. As Dave quite rightly pointed out we cannot give you advice on which legal route to follow.
As a side note, I have to advise you to think very carefully before commencing adjudication against the builder, I am sure if you research previous cases this will help you make a more informed decision on which route to go down.

Pebbs

 

[Pebbs]

I was thinking about this today, and its been bothering me... and this is the part that has really bothered me...

Quote:-
I have tried to settle this with the builder but he will only take 40% fault and believes the architect is just as much to blame as him so I am being forced to adjudicate against the builder. I do not have a right to adjudicate against the architect.

When a contract goes wrong, the architect yet again walks away with their hands clean, because they are protected. God forbid any blame should ever fall on them for making a complete hash of anything. How sick is this industry, when an architect specifies that the stone must come from one company, and in turn their fixing company go in to do the work? So the client goes for the builder, yes because there is no one else to gun for is there? Any architect worth anything should have known the legal requirements, and yet it seems once again they have got away with a booch up. I know I bang on about M40's and how you must follow them to the later, this is because if anything ever goes wrong on a contract, you all as sub-contractors will be held responsible. If you ever deviate from that M40 you are legally accountable for whatever reason they choose to throw at you. The blame is always passed down the line and it ends with the subbie.

Pebbs

 

[jay]

I was thinking about this today, and its been bothering me... and this is the part that has really bothered me...

Quote:-
I have tried to settle this with the builder but he will only take 40% fault and believes the architect is just as much to blame as him so I am being forced to adjudicate against the builder. I do not have a right to adjudicate against the architect.

When a contract goes wrong, the architect yet again walks away with their hands clean, because they are protected. God forbid any blame should ever fall on them for making a complete hash of anything. How sick is this industry, when an architect specifies that the stone must come from one company, and in turn their fixing company go in to do the work? So the client goes for the builder, yes because there is no one else to gun for is there? Any architect worth anything should have known the legal requirements, and yet it seems once again they have got away with a booch up. I know I bang on about M40's and how you must follow them to the later, this is because if anything ever goes wrong on a contract, you all as sub-contractors will be held responsible. If you ever deviate from that M40 you are legally accountable for whatever reason they choose to throw at you. The blame is always passed down the line and it ends with the subbie.

Pebbs

yes the architect walk es away on most probs but you as a tiler also have a choice backed by experience
if you do not agree with specs talk to all involved try to improve the situation so you feel confident with the end product with no kick backs
if you say nothing then things go pear shaped you wear it as does your reputation if it cant be done the right way then walk away or get something in writing to cover your but (probably not worth the paper its written on )

remember you have a choice

 

[Ajax123]

interesting thread. BS5385 only covers the tiling. It does not cover screed design nor underfloor heating. Why is your reliance entirely on the tiling standard yet you are blaming the screed for the failure. Surely you need more information available to you.

As fot the architect taking the rap - if the builder knew it was wrong why did he build it.

 

[Colour Republic]

As fot the architect taking the rap - if the builder knew it was wrong why did he build it.

Because he might have been following the architect's instructions, I've questioned specs before and been shot down, along the lines of "If you won't do it we'll find someone who will" and if you're on site you grumble your displeasure and right or wrong you sometimes get on with it but not before you get it in writing.

 

[Ajax123]

Because he might have been following the architect's instructions, I've questioned specs before and been shot down, along the lines of "If you won't do it we'll find someone who will" and if you're on site you grumble your displeasure and right or wrong you sometimes get on with it but not before you get it in writing.

I appreciate that Colour - my point was not well worded. What I was trying to say was both should share the rap on this. The architect for incorrectly designing the screed and the builder for building it. Of course if there is evidence that the builder has bought the design deficiencies to his attention and been ignored then so be it.

I guess what I am saying is that to find someone "guilty" in this I would need much more information than has been stated.

It could even be argued that if the tiler knew the screed was incorrectly designed then he should not have tiled ..... etc etc

 

[Colour Republic]

I appreciate that Colour - my point was not well worded. What I was trying to say was both should share the rap on this. The architect for incorrectly designing the screed and the builder for building it. Of course if there is evidence that the builder has bought the design deficiencies to his attention and been ignored then so be it.

I guess what I am saying is that to find someone "guilty" in this I would need much more information than has been stated.

It could even be argued that if the tiler knew the screed was incorrectly designed then he should not have tiled ..... etc etc

I agree and I believe the builder has held his hands up and admitted to his proportion but will not take full responsibility. But the architect has protected himself already, although really it sounds like the problem originated from them. The customer has been forced to go for the builder as the next in line and if he manages to defend himself it goes further down the line. Of course the customer is well within their rights to get the situation rectified as none of this is from any wrong doing on their part.

 

[Pebbs]

Ajax, can I ask you a question? what is the maximum amount of screed m2 at 50mm that can be completed in 8 hours? with no additive? Ground floor so no carting it up a few floors.

Pebbs

 

[Ajax123]

Ajax, can I ask you a question? what is the maximum amount of screed m2 at 50mm that can be completed in 8 hours? with no additive? Ground floor so no carting it up a few floors.

Pebbs

Depends on how quick you are at laying it, how you place it e.g. pump or wheel barrow etc, the quality of the screed, cement content etc. Also affected by actual supply to the work site i.e. if it is site mixed you need the mixers to keep up with the layers and vice versa.....

Also bear in mind that if it is a simple sand cement screed generally the minimum depth floating on insulation should be 65mm and not 50mm. If it is either unbonded or "partially bonded" i.e. straight onto an unprepared concrete slab then 50mm is fine as the minimum depth.

All that said I would probably aim for maximum of about 150m2 but realistically if you are asking the question as you are not sure how much you would ba able to do yourself it implies that you are not a screeder as such and you should cut this meterage down quite a bit. I have seen some screeders capable of laying 200m2 in a single day but that is going some IMO and takes practice and organisation.

I have not laid sand cement for several years. Last time was when I did my Kitchen on my own. About 25m2 mixed myself and laid myself at about 80mm and took about 9 hours altogether. A labouror would have cut the time in half at least.

Hoep that helps

Oh by the way if it is Gyvlon you could lay 1500 to 2000m2 in a day at 50mm.

 

[DHTiling]

Oh by the way if it is Gyvlon you could lay 1500 to 2000m2 in a day at 50mm.

I can vouch for that.. just saw about 80 mtrs + go down in a crack today.

 

[Ajax123]

I can vouch for that.. just saw about 80 mtrs + go down in a crack today.

that sounds just wrong on so many levels Dave - more especially so on a thread about cracked screeds and tiles :lol::lol::lol:

 

[DHTiling]

.......:lol::lol::lol: