Adjudication and BS5385 for bad tiling work

[willy]

there should at least have been an expansion joint running through the centre of the room as well as the perimeter, i think 40m2 bays is the max in this instance, although sometimes people don't like expansion joints especially on a multi sized format tile. we have just completed a project with wet UFH system to a college atrium with bays as mentioned above, ditra matting and then fixed with mapei 2 part adhesive, touch wood no cracks.

 

[jay]

oh do the cracks run in line with pipes in screed

 

[doug boardley]

thermal shock from ufh not being commissioned gradually before tiling installation would be my main culprit

 

[jasonh15]

jay - difficult to say whether the cracks run with the UFH pipes however the cracks run in both directions and have spans of 3 - 5 m I would say. There are only about 5 or 6 main long cracks so I would say unlikely that specific UFH sections have caused a crack.

Doug - thanks for that. Even as a layman it makes perfect sense to me to pre "crack" the screed before putting layer with different expansion properties on top of it.

 

[jay]

thermal shock from ufh not being commissioned gradually before tiling installation would be my main culprit

doug your on the money the slab hasnt had enough time to cure either
the cracks should follow pipes in slab (weak point also source of heat)

some pics of cracks and maybe the tile they lifted would help

 

[nybor62]

there should at least have been an expansion joint running through the centre of the room as well as the perimeter, i think 40m2 bays is the max in this instance, although sometimes people don't like expansion joints especially on a multi sized format tile. we have just completed a project with wet UFH system to a college atrium with bays as mentioned above, ditra matting and then fixed with mapei 2 part adhesive, touch wood no cracks.

with under ufh the bay area for expansion should be no bigger than 25m2

 

[DHTiling]

The Heating MUST be commissioned before tiling commences.. this allows the screed to expand with the first heating and any mayor cracking will occur then.

4 weeks is not enough drying time for the screed either.. 6 to 7 weeks would be more like it but as you say an uncoupling membrane would have made it quicker to tile on but not a necessity regarding Bs5385 standards.

BS5385 is a standard and not a regulation but producing the Standards will be taken into consideration if working practises are well below what should have been done.

we cannot advise what legal route to go down and as mentioned that is o nly for a legal person/company to decide if it is worthwhile you doing so .

But from what you have said the installation has been rushed.

 

[Pebbs]

'Puts my specification head on'

Under the terms of a JCT contract the appointed architect should have known that the legal requirement for any area over 50m2 has to have in place a movement joint. This applies only to one open area, should the areas be broken up into diff divisions then it should be agreed between the sub-contractor, main contractor, architect and client the best practice placement of such joints.
The sub-contractor can advise all the relevant parties of the above information, but is not responsible for any defects that should arise, if this advice is ignored.
The architect appointed by the client has a due and diligent responsibilty as the clients representative to ensure that the appointed contractor follows the specification and should any queries arise along the way, then confirm in writing the correct procedure and approvals as such.
As you quite rightly pointed out you can not take action against the architect for legal reasons. As Dave quite rightly pointed out we cannot give you advice on which legal route to follow.
As a side note, I have to advise you to think very carefully before commencing adjudication against the builder, I am sure if you research previous cases this will help you make a more informed decision on which route to go down.

Pebbs

 

[Pebbs]

I was thinking about this today, and its been bothering me... and this is the part that has really bothered me...

Quote:-
I have tried to settle this with the builder but he will only take 40% fault and believes the architect is just as much to blame as him so I am being forced to adjudicate against the builder. I do not have a right to adjudicate against the architect.

When a contract goes wrong, the architect yet again walks away with their hands clean, because they are protected. God forbid any blame should ever fall on them for making a complete hash of anything. How sick is this industry, when an architect specifies that the stone must come from one company, and in turn their fixing company go in to do the work? So the client goes for the builder, yes because there is no one else to gun for is there? Any architect worth anything should have known the legal requirements, and yet it seems once again they have got away with a booch up. I know I bang on about M40's and how you must follow them to the later, this is because if anything ever goes wrong on a contract, you all as sub-contractors will be held responsible. If you ever deviate from that M40 you are legally accountable for whatever reason they choose to throw at you. The blame is always passed down the line and it ends with the subbie.

Pebbs

 

[jay]

I was thinking about this today, and its been bothering me... and this is the part that has really bothered me...

Quote:-
I have tried to settle this with the builder but he will only take 40% fault and believes the architect is just as much to blame as him so I am being forced to adjudicate against the builder. I do not have a right to adjudicate against the architect.

When a contract goes wrong, the architect yet again walks away with their hands clean, because they are protected. God forbid any blame should ever fall on them for making a complete hash of anything. How sick is this industry, when an architect specifies that the stone must come from one company, and in turn their fixing company go in to do the work? So the client goes for the builder, yes because there is no one else to gun for is there? Any architect worth anything should have known the legal requirements, and yet it seems once again they have got away with a booch up. I know I bang on about M40's and how you must follow them to the later, this is because if anything ever goes wrong on a contract, you all as sub-contractors will be held responsible. If you ever deviate from that M40 you are legally accountable for whatever reason they choose to throw at you. The blame is always passed down the line and it ends with the subbie.

Pebbs

yes the architect walk es away on most probs but you as a tiler also have a choice backed by experience
if you do not agree with specs talk to all involved try to improve the situation so you feel confident with the end product with no kick backs
if you say nothing then things go pear shaped you wear it as does your reputation if it cant be done the right way then walk away or get something in writing to cover your but (probably not worth the paper its written on )

remember you have a choice