Advice on porcelain tile movement. Grout coming out of tiles.

[Wonkyfloor]

I would get a couple of professionals round to give you a full written quote to give you the finished product you would like including all remedial works. Then try to offset some of the cost by getting as much back from this builder as possible. Honestly I wouldn’t entertain the idea of him doing any more work for you. He’s well out of his depth. Whoever is doing the work is trying his best but in reality doesn’t have the first idea of what he is doing.

This is great advice thank you again. Will look into some tilers i’m just feeling like it’s so hard to know who to trust now after this experience. And it’s even harder when they can talk the talk and it sounds good to me because I’m the first to admit when it comes to trade talk it means nothing to me. Wish I had just joined the forum and been brave enough to ask questions sooner. will maybe have to ask husband to take some time off work or arrange my dad to be here. You are all truly a great bunch of people I must be boring you all to tears but words can’t explain how thankful I am to you all for taking time out of your day/night to advise me and arm me with some great knowledge that I would never have known without the help of this forum.

 

[Time's Ran Out]

If you accepted the 3k would they include all the materials on top - tiles adhesive grout boards ....?

 

[Wonkyfloor]

If you accepted the 3k would they include all the materials on top - tiles adhesive grout boards ....?

No 3k and leave it to us to sort out tiles, materials and a tiler and which also would mean I then need joiners in to replace skirtings door frames etc that have been removed to get the tiles up. As it is the joiner who is the project manager. The original tiler has changed numbers etc so no money can be reclaimed from him either.

 

[Time's Ran Out]

Small claims court maybe your best option!
Action against whoever you paid the money directly too.
Who took up the tiles?

 

[Boggs]

What’s happening with the UFH, are they installing more on top of this?

With what they have done with the No More Ply indicates they have no idea what they are doing so I would stop any further work if I was you.

It really annoys me when “tradesmen” try to get out of their obligations with part refunds, if they are not competent then a full refund should be given. Better still they shouldn’t attempt the work in the first place.

 

[WetSaw]

It's probably getting tight to get things sorted properly before Christmas as I think you need to stop this work now and get a proper refund which may mean getting legal.
I'd put some cheap cord carpet over those boards, enjoy your Christmas with your family then attack this with renewed vigor in the new year.
You didn't pay the original "tiler" directly so your contract isn't with him, it's the project manager.

 

[J Sid]

get whoever is going to do the work, or even a new tiler to do a complete method statement, materials and fixing method. Then take pics as the job progresses.

 

[Wonkyfloor]

Small claims court maybe your best option!
Action against whoever you paid the money directly too.
Who took up the tiles?

The agreement was we would have the new tiler take up all tiles and existing adhesive, underfloor heating etc until we had a blank canvas and that the joiner would come over first in the morning and take of skirtings door frames etc to allow this to happen.
Yesterday the joiners show up and remove skirtings etc but then started lifting tiles also. So by the time the new tiler arrived there wasn’t too many left for him to lift. Plus they stayed and continued helping (trying to save money again I think).

Then what has confused me even more is I had a conversation with my new tiler on my own without joiner present on Wednesday. Tiler was adamant about how this job had to be done ie everything ripped out and hardiebacker boards used on floorboards. Then yesterday when he was going to get materials the joiners went with him stayed with him all day and were helping put the boards down. So what has changed from his attitude on Wednesday that he’s not putting his name to the floor unless it’s done the way we all agreed, to them basically escorting him around yesterday? Is it more money saving on their part and he thinks he’ll be able to a decent job with the restrictions still? I think this is a question I have to get answered directly from the tiler.

 

[Wonkyfloor]

What’s happening with the UFH, are they installing more on top of this?

With what they have done with the No More Ply indicates they have no idea what they are doing so I would stop any further work if I was you.

It really annoys me when “tradesmen” try to get out of their obligations with part refunds, if they are not competent then a full refund should be given. Better still they shouldn’t attempt the work in the first place.

Yes they said tiler will be here Monday to do ‘his bit’ whatever that means is anyone’s guess at the moment as I wasn’t told. But what I was told, are that the joiners are planning on putting new heat mats down on Monday night. But at the moment no work will be happening as I need answers. Based on all this information I’m gathering now from all of you, I feel a bit more confident in holding my own and not basically being shut up as if I don’t know what I’m talking about.

 

[Wonkyfloor]

get whoever is going to do the work, or even a new tiler to do a complete method statement, materials and fixing method. Then take pics as the job progresses.

Thank you I will ask for this tomorrow morning. As it stands just now it seems no more work will be moving forward while the floor looks like this!

 

[Wonkyfloor]

It's probably getting tight to get things sorted properly before Christmas as I think you need to stop this work now and get a proper refund which may mean getting legal.
I'd put some cheap cord carpet over those boards, enjoy your Christmas with your family then attack this with renewed vigor in the new year.
You didn't pay the original "tiler" directly so your contract isn't with him, it's the project manager.

It’s all down to money rather than doing the job right but to me. But going with everyone’s opinion on the work so far it’s not going to work and will just cost them more to end up doing it right in the end. I don’t know how this works but surely if money is genuinely tight on his part for repairs and he’s having to cut corners then he should have some sort of insurance that could be claimed for the funds needed for the work?

 

[Boggs]

Stick to your guns on this.
The only way to ensure this is done correctly is to remove everything back to original sub floor.

If it’s No More Ply being used it must be installed as per the instructions provided here.

If it’s Hardie Backer then see here.
https://www.jameshardie.co.uk/import/Documents/HardieBacker Product & Installation Guide.pdf

Any levelling compound used must be suitable for timber floors.

Tiles should be fixed with notched trowel and back of the tiles to be back skimmed to aid adhesion.

Good luck.

 

[Time's Ran Out]

@Boggs - I think there is a lot more to it then your post!

 

[Wonkyfloor]

UPDATE
I have just phoned tiler for an update on this situation and asked why we’re not back to a bare floor. He advised me that the joiner is saying it would take days to remove all existing slc etc. So when that option was removed the next best solution was to use a concrete based board screwed in with 40 something screws to lift the floor. He has advised joiner that he will have to review floor once boards are down for stability and that we will hear cracks just now because of the existing adhesive underneath. Told him I understood why I could hear cracking as all of that was still underneath that but I could actually feel movement in a specific board and he’s coming out tomorrow as planned to review. He said if the floor isn’t stable then it has to go back to the joiner and decide wether that means lifting it all or using a suitable compound which will secure it. He said he will not waste his or our time laying the tiles if it isn’t going to work so not to worry. I also asked about his method for adhesive which he told me he definitely doesn’t do dot and dab method, he trowels it on the floor and then backskims the tile and also all materials getting used will be flexible.

 

[Time's Ran Out]

It would have been just as easy to have lifted all the old adhesive on the 6mm plywood. Even to have levelled all the floor prior to fitting the No more ply. But unless you use the expensive tubes of adhesive with NMP, tape and mechanical fixings I don’t see a satisfactory outcome!

 

[Wonkyfloor]

It would have been just as easy to have lifted all the old adhesive on the 6mm plywood. Even to have levelled all the floor prior to fitting the No more ply. But unless you use the expensive tubes of adhesive with NMP, tape and mechanical fixings I don’t see a satisfactory outcome!

He’s told me they boards don’t need taped or joined with adhesive and that no more ply and hardiebacker are the same thing both concrete based boards. Sorry again for bombarding you but I’m just wanting to be fully armed and ready for them all arriving tomorrow. Another concern I have is how high my floor will be sitting at the end of this if they continued with this job and put the underfloor heating on top then a compound on top of that.

 

[Time's Ran Out]

It’ll be about 25-30mm finished height.
I looked at a job last year where NMP was used on walls and floor - the walls cracked at 800mm high ( the same height as the boards width) inadequate support at the join meant slight movement transferred through the tile face! It’s the only board I know of that doesn’t recommend taping the joints, saying the ultra strong glue is all it needs. It wasn’t so in my view and since you don’t have any specified fixing method ( loose laid boards on a unprepared sub base ) with no glue under or between boards and screws without washers - well it’s going to fail!!
And they are not the same! Hardie is my preferred board.

 

[Wonkyfloor]

It’ll be about 25-30mm finished height.
I looked at a job last year where NMP was used on walls and floor - the walls cracked at 800mm high ( the same height as the boards width) inadequate support at the join meant slight movement transferred through the tile face! It’s the only board I know of that doesn’t recommend taping the joints, saying the ultra strong glue is all it needs. It wasn’t so in my view and since you don’t have any specified fixing method ( loose laid boards on a unprepared sub base ) with no glue under or between boards and screws without washers - well it’s going to fail!!
And they are not the same! Hardie is my preferred board.

Thank you so much your knowledge again is helping more than I can express in words. The finished height is going to make it sit way to high compared to existing downstairs WC floor tiles and bifold door runners, which will look ridiculous because there was already a height difference first time round so this is going to be even more noticeable. I’m thinking my best option is tomorrow to tell them to rip everything up right down to the floor boards as this is just heading straight for another tiling disaster! I’m basically getting rid of a problem to create another one in its place by the sound of all the information I’ve got from the forum.

 

[Wonkyfloor]

Just another picture to show where I’m at already with the height difference between my bifold door runner and the floor and this is without underfloor heating tiles etc laid yet just the boards on top of existing adhesive etc. I’ve just forwarded this picture on to the joiner to tell him it will look ridiculous. Does anyone have any opinion on what I have said to him about this? Thanks in advance

 

[Time's Ran Out]

This area needed to be a seamless as possible and even with that unsupported edge you are going to have an unecessary step into the room!
You really have to make the decision to have the lot up and start from bare floorboards.

 

[Wonkyfloor]

This area needed to be a seamless as possible and even with that unsupported edge you are going to have an unecessary step into the room!
You really have to make the decision to have the lot up and start from bare floorboards.

Thanks again. I just needed a professional opinion on it before I start with them! That full lot is coming up one way or another! I’ve heard enough lies and had enough excuses from them to last me a lifetime. Now knowing from this forum (which I’ll be forever grateful for, for all of the expert advice I’ve been given) that I’ve been right all along and they’ve been disregarding my concerns and opinions has pushed me to the point of no more patience or being nice about it.

 

[Wonkyfloor]

It’s now been took out of their hands on trusting them to take it all up so it’s now been stripped back to ply 🙂 we’ll see what is said tomorrow morning

 

[Waluigi]

I hope you finally get someone good to do the work. Nobody deserves the stress you must be going through with all of this.

 

[Wonkyfloor]

I hope you finally get someone good to do the work. Nobody deserves the stress you must be going through with all of this.

Thank you so much. I have been so
friendly and accommodating throughout all of this. But I think that has been taken as softness and taken advantage of. A bit off topic but
regarding the stress it has been making me unwell but the hardest part today for me was my 5 year old son absolutely breaking his heart crying telling me that Santa won’t find his house this year without a Christmas tree because the men have made the house to messy to have one. Then the joiner after trying to communicate with him and getting nowhere again disregarding what I had to say. I then mentioned that i had been seeking professional advice from an online forum and his reply to me was he doesn’t give a F what people on any forums have to say. As I said in an earlier post he must have a heart made of pure stone.

 

[WetSaw]

Looking at how cleanly that has come up surely even he can see that there was no bond at all to the ply.
The first thing to do now is check there's no deflection (bounce) in the floor.

 

[Bill]

Is that ply nailed down?

 

[Waluigi]

That 6mm ply has to come up.

We need to see what’s underneath. It needs insulation board on top of the sub floor before UFH is laid on top.

 

[Wonkyfloor]

Have some positive news for a change 🙂
!! After what you could call a heated Monday morning, we now have a new independent tiler who came highly recommended to us with a portfolio to back it up. He has agreed to take on the job and take full control of what gets done and what is needed and as unbelievable as it is
to me project manager agreed to pay the bill.

The tiler couldn’t believe it when he seen for himself that tiles had been infact laid on 6mm ply (think he thought we must have been exaggerating) and then when I showed him the same pictures that I have posted on here I got the exact same reaction that I received from this forum. I just wanted to come back and thank you all again for giving me that push to get the control back on my side and also for
encouraging me to get someone that I trust to do the work instead.

 

[Wonkyfloor]

Is that ply nailed down?

Yes the ply was nailed down 😱 and the nails varied between some being 8 inches apart others being between 10 and 12!

 

[Dumbo]

Good luck going forward .

 

[Boggs]

Glad you have it sorted.