Ceramic floor tiles...?

[Time's Ran Out]

I've said it before and I'll repeat it again - what gives a person the right to charge a customer for work he has no knowledge of. To give advice to a DIY'er is totally different to telling someone how to rip off a potential unsuspecting client.
I understand your comments about some of the other threads and the replies from some experienced members but when you've posted more than 305 times you may find that the only way to protect the standards of our trade is to be honest an forthright!
You may find your concerns could find a better response if you start a new thread on this subject in the Tilers Arms.

 

[AMtek]

I agree with you 100% people who don't know what they are doing shouldn't be charging customers for it but on the other hand a lot of people who come on this forum complain about jobs failing because of incorrect prep, wrong materials, dot & dabbing etc. a lot of this is down to "tilers" not knowing any different and if these people find their way on to the forum would it not be more beneficial to the general public to educate these people? we have all ripped out jobs that on the face of it appear to be good jobs but then uncover 6mm plyed floors and dot & dabbed walls, with a bit more knowledge there is a good chance that these people would prep a job right and use the right materials and then you would be cursing them because ripping their work out is taking twice as long as you thought it would when you follow them 10 years later.

When I was learning to tile I was taught to use 6mm ply, prime with PVA, we never tanked a wet area, always used tubbed addy on walls. The work always looked good as and far as I know my gaffer never got a call back because of a failure. I only stumbled onto this forum when I was planning on setting up on my own and my god am I glad I did! if I hadn't then I would probably still be doing all of those things, I would have been unintentionally producing cowboy work because I would have thought it was the right way to do it.

I'm not the only one to have benefitted from the advise on this forum though because 6 months after I set up on my own I teamed up with my old boss to do 20 bathrooms in a new residential home and as far as he was concerned it was business as usual: tubbed addy, PVA for primer, no tanking and the first 2 we were due to start were only plastered the day before. I told him I didn't want to try and tell him how to suck eggs but it was all wrong and explained it all to him and thankfully he listened and we left the rooms for 2 weeks to dry out properly, he changed the primer and the addy and talked to the site manager about tanking (he didn't listen though).

granted I spent the best part of a month staying up until stupid o'clock in the morning reading through old threads to educate myself before I posted anything at all but if I had joined the forum , posted a stupid question or given bad advice and had a load a aggressive answers calling me every name under the sun I probably wouldn't have logged in again and carried on with my cowboy ways simply because that's the way I was taught and I didn't know any better.

Everybody wants to improve the trade and I think everyone can improve it a tiny bit by simply telling everybody that comes onto the forum how to do the job better and some of these people will start producing good work and there will be a few less customers getting ripped off. I think a lot of people think that the cowboys who don't do the job properly know exactly how to do the work right and choose not to but I think there are a lot more people who just need educating on the error of their ways.

 

[AMtek]

I've opened a thread in the arms if anyone would prefer to reply there http://www.tilersforums.com/tilers-forums-arms/69540-advice-forum.html

 

[m3fitter]

is it April 1st !! wind up... no one is that dense, if they are, they wouldn't advertise it....... would they @@ !!

 

[Houston]

he's not coming back

 

[Mr Tiler]

whos not?

 

[ian158]

Ceramics chip easier if something's dropped on them...say...a hammer !

 

[ian158]

When I started tiling I would ask the shop the correct method of what to use..thankfully it was as most have advised in here..but it also gets tiring when someone asks a question and your first responses is...are you a diy'er or being paid for the job!..what does it matter ? Just give them the correct advise and people will be doing the job better..then you won't need to moan about it every time someone posts a question.ot have to go Roy d that poor customers house and put it right...my mum said..you got nothing positive to say, don't say it..why can't you all just turn the record off and give these guys and gals the advise they need and not be so bloody patronising !

 

[Time's Ran Out]

Ceramics chip easier if something's dropped on them...say...a hammer !

Really - I would have not known that !
Thanks very much.

Do I now go into the group of 'bloody patronising' members who have as much right to express an opinion without being criticised as have others for continually whinging about said group!
Do as your mother says - but just stop moaning!

 

[ian158]

Not saying you don't have a right to an opinion at all John..it's just like Groundhog Day everytime some diy'er odd job mulitrade painter plumber jobless 20 something wants advice....

 

[Time's Ran Out]

Ian - I think that all the groups you have mentioned get a good response/input from all established members - most get a welcome and a reply with respect to their enquiry. However some questions asked border on 'no stupid questions' and some are damaging to our trade. Those with the experience to 'read' the post and have many years of nothing but tiling can often be sensitive to protecting a passion and obviously want the job done properly, and thus that's where your Grounhog Day applies! There is IMHO and increase in the amount of chancers undertaking work they have no experience in and charging unsuspecting customers for a lack of knowledge which is putting my trade into disrepute! I personally would rather see a reply which dissuades someone from asking the 'how' and any tiler with an ethical bone would certainly want this occupation to become more professional.
In conclusion - I have no issue with any of the groups you have highlighted, but I'am of the opinion that tiling to a standard is an art gained through experience with a certain amount of passion and enjoyment! To be admonished for telling it as it is is not bitching, complaining or otherwise it's just being honest!

Yours sincerely - timeless John.

 

[ian158]

I hear everything you say...but why lose sleep over what a client has had to go through..it's not your problem...today I went to fit a shower screen..blind..and when I got there I ended up stripping the whole thing out!!..tiles loose..no silicone anywhere...tiles dot and dabbed on ply...the tiles on the other walls fell off due to PVA being used and just a skin peeled off...I would like to thank the idiot that did that job as its now given me 2 more days work..don't moan about shoddy work...lets relish in getting all this extra work from it..it's been going on for years and will still be going on long after you or I are posting on the tilers forum in the sky..

 

[AliGage]

Ian - I think that all the groups you have mentioned get a good response/input from all established members - most get a welcome and a reply with respect to their enquiry. However some questions asked border on 'no stupid questions' and some are damaging to our trade. Those with the experience to 'read' the post and have many years of nothing but tiling can often be sensitive to protecting a passion and obviously want the job done properly, and thus that's where your Grounhog Day applies! There is IMHO and increase in the amount of chancers undertaking work they have no experience in and charging unsuspecting customers for a lack of knowledge which is putting my trade into disrepute! I personally would rather see a reply which dissuades someone from asking the 'how' and any tiler with an ethical bone would certainly want this occupation to become more professional.
In conclusion - I have no issue with any of the groups you have highlighted, but I'am of the opinion that tiling to a standard is an art gained through experience with a certain amount of passion and enjoyment! To be admonished for telling it as it is is not bitching, complaining or otherwise it's just being honest!

Yours sincerely - timeless John.

Amen!

 

[AMtek]

I think my point is being missed.

1) There is too much bitching in general on the forum
2) If we can save a job failing because someone is doing something slightly wrong (wrong floor prep, wrong primer, wrong adhesive, dot & dabbing) then we should explain why this is wrong instead of tearing people to shreds. If they argue that they are still right then as far as I'm concerned then they are a cowboy and anyone can say whatever they want.
3) Not everyone who asks a basic question is a cowboy they might have just been given the wrong information in the past.

 

[ian158]

Started this today..was going to just change the screen but all the tiles fell off..I'm not sure if a tiler did this, a builder,a plumber but its wrong..but me..a multitrade odd jobber will be putting it right...bring on the cowboys so I can earn money putting there work right !..even if I get slagged off for being one..people who moan about not getting work need to diversify...do you think I need a carpenter to take that ply off the wall.....Only joking !

 

[charlie1]

I must admit, I sway on the idea of giving out too much free advice, certainly on here!! I've been lucky enough to personally chat with some of this forums well respected members who where very generous and gave me nuggets of advice on how to take my tiling to the next level, why they chose to divulge the methods I can only guess is because they liked me as a person ...who knows but I'm very very grateful. I'm very protective of my secrets now.

 

[Time's Ran Out]

I think my point is being missed.

1) There is too much bitching in general on the forum
2) If we can save a job failing because someone is doing something slightly wrong (wrong floor prep, wrong primer, wrong adhesive, dot & dabbing) then we should explain why this is wrong instead of tearing people to shreds. If they argue that they are still right then as far as I'm concerned then they are a cowboy and anyone can say whatever they want.
3) Not everyone who asks a basic question is a cowboy they might have just been given the wrong information in the past.

I haven't missed your point.
1. IMO the only person using the term 'bitching' is you! Everyone else is providing replies that they believe are honest and forthright .
2. What examples can you highlight of someone being 'torn to shreds'
3. Basic questions are the lifeblood of all forums and as above I believe they are answered correctly.

 

[Andy Allen]

imo its good advice to tell a plumber, carpenter or any other trade that they best not attempt to tile someones wet for the first time by starting a 'how do I do this' thread and 14 post later he thinks he's qualified enough to do the job...

 

[The Legend; Phil Hobson RIP]

I must admit, I sway on the idea of giving out too much free advice, certainly on here!! I've been lucky enough to personally chat with some of this forums well respected members who where very generous and gave me nuggets of advice on how to take my tiling to the next level, why they chose to divulge the methods I can only guess is because they liked me as a person ...who knows but I'm very very grateful. I'm very protective of my secrets now.

I must admit I have followed this thread with interest from the beginning, I can see all points, and sympathize with all to a degree.

But I do think that we do tend to give a lot of advice, sometimes to the wrong people. When I was a bound apprentice I had to sign a declaration that I would never divulge any skills taught to me to anyone else.

That was back in the day, I know our industry has changed so much ( not for the best imo) I don't mind helping people with tips, if I think they really want to further their skills in this noble trade.

But I do resent the dilution of skills I have witnessed over the years, tiling is a very skilled trade when done correctly, to many people are having a go, because they believe/or have been told it is easy. If we give to much advice on here we are committing business suicide.

Anyway back to the OP I may have just lost a good job because I don't think the Johnson's B&Q ceramics are fit for a floor that will be used in a kitchen/ consevatory in a family home.

I feel no need to be classed as part of one group or another, I am just me, and I'm quietly confident in my skills, thank you.:8:

 

[John Benton]

I must admit I have followed this thread with interest from the beginning, I can see all points, and sympathize with all to a degree.

But I do think that we do tend to give a lot of advice, sometimes to the wrong people. When I was a bound apprentice I had to sign a declaration that I would never divulge any skills taught to me to anyone else.

That was back in the day, I know our industry has changed so much ( not for the best imo) I don't mind helping people with tips, if I think they really want to further their skills in this noble trade.

But I do resent the dilution of skills I have witnessed over the years, tiling is a very skilled trade when done correctly, to many people are having a go, because they believe/or have been told it is easy. If we give to much advice on here we are committing business suicide.

Anyway back to the OP I may have just lost a good job because I don't think the Johnson's B&Q ceramics are fit for a floor that will be used in a kitchen/ consevatory in a family home.

I feel no need to be classed as part of one group or another, I am just me, and I'm quietly confident in my skills, thank you.:8:

No shame in walking away from a job Phil if the materials are not fit for purpose. The customer will probably find out in the not too distant future why you chose this option, you may even get a phone call.

Don't forget, buy cheap, pay twice :smilewinkgrin:

 

[The D]

I agree with you 100% people who don't know what they are doing shouldn't be charging customers for it but on the other hand a lot of people who come on this forum complain about jobs failing because of incorrect prep, wrong materials, dot & dabbing etc. a lot of this is down to "tilers" not knowing any different and if these people find their way on to the forum would it not be more beneficial to the general public to educate these people? we have all ripped out jobs that on the face of it appear to be good jobs but then uncover 6mm plyed floors and dot & dabbed walls, with a bit more knowledge there is a good chance that these people would prep a job right and use the right materials and then you would be cursing them because ripping their work out is taking twice as long as you thought it would when you follow them 10 years later.

When I was learning to tile I was taught to use 6mm ply, prime with PVA, we never tanked a wet area, always used tubbed addy on walls. The work always looked good as and far as I know my gaffer never got a call back because of a failure. I only stumbled onto this forum when I was planning on setting up on my own and my god am I glad I did! if I hadn't then I would probably still be doing all of those things, I would have been unintentionally producing cowboy work because I would have thought it was the right way to do it.

I'm not the only one to have benefitted from the advise on this forum though because 6 months after I set up on my own I teamed up with my old boss to do 20 bathrooms in a new residential home and as far as he was concerned it was business as usual: tubbed addy, PVA for primer, no tanking and the first 2 we were due to start were only plastered the day before. I told him I didn't want to try and tell him how to suck eggs but it was all wrong and explained it all to him and thankfully he listened and we left the rooms for 2 weeks to dry out properly, he changed the primer and the addy and talked to the site manager about tanking (he didn't listen though).

granted I spent the best part of a month staying up until stupid o'clock in the morning reading through old threads to educate myself before I posted anything at all but if I had joined the forum , posted a stupid question or given bad advice and had a load a aggressive answers calling me every name under the sun I probably wouldn't have logged in again and carried on with my cowboy ways simply because that's the way I was taught and I didn't know any better.

Everybody wants to improve the trade and I think everyone can improve it a tiny bit by simply telling everybody that comes onto the forum how to do the job better and some of these people will start producing good work and there will be a few less customers getting ripped off. I think a lot of people think that the cowboys who don't do the job properly know exactly how to do the work right and choose not to but I think there are a lot more people who just need educating on the error of their ways.

One question for you, where is your advice to the op??? I can find some answers and I can find some questions as to the length and depth of experience the op has (and in my mind it is sensible to find out what tiles are being used and what level of understanding the op has before you spend to much time answering) but I can’t find your advice all I can find is negative comments about the forum and its long standing members.

 

[The D]

When I started tiling I would ask the shop the correct method of what to use..thankfully it was as most have advised in here..but it also gets tiring when someone asks a question and your first responses is...are you a diy'er or being paid for the job!..what does it matter ? Just give them the correct advise and people will be doing the job better..then you won't need to moan about it every time someone posts a question.ot have to go Roy d that poor customers house and put it right...my mum said..you got nothing positive to say, don't say it..why can't you all just turn the record off and give these guys and gals the advise they need and not be so bloody patronising !

100% coverage as with all floor tiles.
Nothing wrong with laying ceramics on a floor as long as they are floor tiles & not wall... this was the first post not are you a diy'er or being paid for the job! so what are you banging on about ??????

 

[AMtek]

I would advise a customer to spend a few extra quid and go for porcelain personally, tougher tile and they don't have the tendency to scratch and chip round the edges like I have seen ceramics do. That's just my opinion and if its wrong then I have probably lost a few jobs needlessly but that's only affecting my bank balance.


At the end of the day there are always going to be people who do work they don't know how to do and until customers start taking the advice that they should ask for recommendations, view previous work the tradesman has done, check their liability cover and educate themselves on how a job should be done then there will be people charging for bad work. its tiling not open heart surgery.


My original post was to do with the attitude of some people when answering a question not whether it is right or wrong that people charge for work that shouldn't be

 

[Time's Ran Out]

Not for the first time ( but it might be!) I am in total agreement with Deano .
This thread has gone from helping an Op ( who hasn't even responded to his own thread) to defending the input from more experienced members. I'am surprised that we are even giving credence to some individual members comments as they seem so full of contradiction and set on disruption. How long they would last in the real world - I wonder ( but still couldn't care a bit) !

 

[AMtek]

How long they would last in the real world - I wonder ( but still couldn't care a bit) !

I'm confused?