Dot & Dab travertine?

[DHTiling]

Back buttering tiles gary and getting a good coverage is all fine but dot and dabbing isnt that is it....dot and dab is spot fixing and that is totally different to back buttering and getting a solid fix........i have fixed in sand and cement and always solid bed fixed as you say and it is a very solid fix.....but spot fixing as this tiler has is not the best method you must agree......

 

[Spud]

Back buttering tiles gary and getting a good coverage is all fine but dot and dabbing isnt that is it....dot and dab is spot fixing and that is totally different to back buttering and getting a solid fix........i have fixed in sand and cement and always solid bed fixed as you say and it is a very solid fix.....but spot fixing as this tiler has is not the best method you must agree......

completely agree but grumpy got a really hard time about this and the word cowboy was used when you work with large format stone this is extensively spot fixed and dot and dabbed as the pictures from lisbon show where copper wire pins were used ,copper wire pins arent used here these days we use stainless wire up to first storey height and proper fixings above that i think spankys travertine in his original post were poorly fixed however if he had shown a tile with 95-100% coverage i would have a think differenly the bottom line is he has got himself a lazy fixer who hasnt moved with the times opinion

 

[Dan]

i have just spent 15 minutes reading the posts about this subject and i have to agree with grumpy on this ,if done correctly dot and dabbing tiles is a good method of fixing tiles but i stress most clearly you must know what you are doing .bs 5385 covers the installation of floor and wall tiles and specifies best practice for the installation of the tiles and the reason why adhesive manufactures dont recommend dot and dabbing is most adhesives arent recommended to be used more than 12mm thick. lets be clear adhesive has only been around for 30-40 years before that every tile was fitted using sand and cement mortar beds if any one has ever tried to remove a tile fitted this way you will know that its the best way of fitting tiles due to the 100% coverage and the unbeleivble bond strength of the mortar no additives just opc and sand .if done correctly and you achieve 100% coverage dot and dabbing and you slide you tiles to open the adhesive and dont bed out more than 11mm you will achieve the same results from the adhesive as combing it on with a serrated trowel more importantly i would be more concerned on how the adhesive was mixed than how it was applied ,adhesive must be mechanically mixed with a drill and whisk, the walls must be sound and free of friable material and the adhesive must be applied to the wall with a trowel .the problem is the tiler you have just put a few dots on has not got the coverage required and didnt trowel it on to the wall and you have an un safe installation this wont help clearing up this post ,i just thought that grumpy has been unfairly treated and good luck to him for having experience and not just reading technical books and spouting bs, british standards that is lol

Ooooo

We just want to know if it's a good job. Is (was) it?

 

[pjtiler]

good luck for monday!

aye you,ll need it
ive never met a surveyor that new anything about the ins and out of the trade yet
and ive met a few in my time
thick as pig sh!t usually

 

[brian c]

sometimes you cant change the minds of some older tilers,but hey he is entitled to his opinion but i dont agree with it either and i would never spot fix a tile of this weight on walls in that mess,the walls should have been sorted out at the beginning of the job imo.

 

[grumpygrouter]

sometimes you cant change the minds of some older tilers,but hey he is entitled to his opinion but i dont agree with it either and i would never spot fix a tile of this weight on walls in that mess,the walls should have been sorted out at the beginning of the job imo.

I agree with you Bri, the floor is a bit suspect now after the angle grinder has been at it too!

 

[brian c]

what about the dust from using the grinder,the babies are in the house ffs.K N O B H E A D.

He probably couldnt be arsed going outside to cut the tiles.Just a shabby job.This thread is RED HOT though.I wonder if any manufacturers will see this and respond.

 

[spanky]

The Tiler was 28 - 30 years old at most.

 

[pjtiler]

sometimes you cant change the minds of some older tilers,but hey he is entitled to his opinion but i dont agree with it either and i would never spot fix a tile of this weight on walls in that mess,the walls should have been sorted out at the beginning of the job imo.

this old tilers opinions are formed from 45 years experience not from books or supa dupa tiling schools
PS i did mention the weight factor

 

[spanky]

1 Manufacturer has stated they will happily put their thoughts in writing. And clearly state how their adhesive should be applied.

It is stated on the packet too funnily enough.

 

[grumpygrouter]

1 Manufacturer has stated they will happily put their thoughts in writing. And clearly state how their adhesive should be applied.

It is stated on the packet too funnily enough.

All the adhesives I use tell you on the packet how it should be applied. The guy just thought he knew better than the people that make it!

 

[spanky]

Just a thought about the surveyor? Does it really matter what he knows, it only matters what he writes surely.

He has that BSc MRICS after his name, the court will take it as Gospel if it goes that far, add in the adhesive manufacturer and 3 "Tile Companies / Fitters (Time Served)".

This may be the wrong way of seeing it, but I am sure that's how it is.

"The Supply of Goods and Services Act 1982 says the bathroom must be installed with reasonable care and skill. The standard required is that of any other competent member of the trade in question. Moreover, the installer must use materials that are of satisfactory quality and fit for their purpose."

You lot have answered the above about 100+ times I reckon.

I would be most surprised if a defence could even be submitted that would have much chance of success.

I do have a written Order / Quote / Contract.

However, I still don't really want to take that route unless it is unavoidable. Although it is looking that way.

He will get his letter, and hence his chance to put it right.

 

[pjtiler]

1 Manufacturer has stated they will happily put their thoughts in writing. And clearly state how their adhesive should be applied.

It is stated on the packet too funnily enough.

i think you've got all the help/advice and technical info now mate
i would just sit back and enjoy the young V old gits fight
(my dads bigger than your dad) that going to start
bike sheds at play time anyone

 

[brian c]

pjtiler i was not having a pop at you m8 as i know you are more experienced than i and you also have your opinions ,i was generalising when i said what i said maybe i should have worded it different something likeits hard to change peoples ways when they are used to something and doing things in a certain way,people dont like change in the work place this is a well known fact m8.But again i wasnt having a go at you bud....Bri

 

[Olz]

Wow 140 posts and still raging, this could be the hottest thread ever. :joker:

 

[pjtiler]

pjtiler i was not having a pop at you m8 as i know you are more experienced than i and you also have your opinions ,i was generalising when i said what i said maybe i should have worded it different something likeits hard to change peoples ways when they are used to something and doing things in a certain way,people dont like change in the work place this is a well known fact m8.But again i wasnt having a go at you bud....Bri

i foregive you my son
say 3 hail marys and 1 our father

 

[sibs]

I can't believe what I've just read! I think whitebeam made a very good point about the grout

 

[nickj]

Think everything has been said mate, the only thing i'll add is that whenever we all come acoss a job here we have to remove tiles, it usually takes 1 tile for us to spot dot and dab and we all get a little smile as we know that you tap them and they are off.

 

[bj F]

this is a job i did a few years back in lisbon (granite ) every tile was spot fixed

I don’t think you will get away with spot fixing tiles like that in this country m8. Mechanically fixed exterior cladding I think after a certain height anyway.

 

[grumpy]

I will make this my last post on this thread and attempt to deal with each thing in order or importance.
Firstly my credentials
I am a time severed tradesman with nearly 20 years experience in the tiling trade
As a commercial tiler I have completed contracts for the home office,most of my local health authorities many high street names such as M&S safeway.hsbc natwest.I was tiling heated floors in –20 cold rooms 15 years before heated floors came in to domestic applications. I own a number of small businesses 2 of which deal with nothing but the rectification of faulty workmanship by so called qualified tradesman. I have worked for most of the major insurance companies.I have given evidence in court on tiling matters.
.

Spanky I’m truly sorry for the bother that you’ve had with bad contractors and poor information on an Internet forum. The one common thread that ironically runs through both problems is inexperience and good intention. On the upside though you have exposed a trader who should not be tiling with his level of knowledge he has at this time. Secondly you have exposed all that’s wrong with the tiling trade just now and thirdly you have seen a little of the dangers of internet forums.
The party line for your problem is to undo everything this person has done and start again. But this gives you two problems saying that and getting it done are two different things altogether, that’s why there isn’t a queue of well meaning tillers at your door. It’s a cr*ppy job to remove 35 meters of tiles and clean them up ready for refitting. You will loose many tiles as they have obviously already cut them. You have a number of choices now but I will deal with the two most likely ones. You stop the work and try and find someone to start again. Then you lay out more money for more tiles and begin the long costly battle through the court. The stress you will go through for what ultimately is something of a gamble isn’t worth it in my view.
Alternatively I would offer this as a possible solution. If your happy with the general appearance of the work and your only problem is the issue of dot and dab fixing you can ask the contractor firstly for sight of his liability insurance.(it is not a legal requirement to have cover) Secondly sit down with him and explain your concerns and ask if he will remove a number of tiles at random so you can see that the tiles have a majority coverage. You can ask him to produce a simple test rig to satisfy your concerns. A rig would take no more than quarter of an hour to put together. Ask is he prepared to supply another tiler to complete the job and tell him you are prepared to wait x weeks for a good tiler to come free. Finally spanky this last comment is based on what I see on the picture of the reverse side of the tile on the floor and nothing else. Any talk of children in danger etc is tabloid type sensationalism, If that is a cement based adhesive and it was fixed to a suitably prepared surface, with that amount of coverage then I would have no problem bathing my kids under it If you want photo evidence of tiles that have been dabbed in bathrooms and are still on the walls years later then let me know and I will get you some. Take a step back from the frenzy that’s gone on here and I still maintain have an informal chat to an architect if your still unsure. That’s me and you done spanky.

Now deanotile one of the biggest problems of Internet forums is that people get very brave because of their animinity. Most insults wouldn’t be said if it was a face-to-face situation. I think its only fair then that if i post a personal insult it is under the following condition, That I make my real name and address known to that person so they can challenge me if they disagree. I await yours!

Now to the massive
To save you the trouble searching here is my original post
There is nothing wrong with dabbing the wall tiles so long as its a cement based adhesive. From the photo you posted it looks like there is at least 75% coverage on the tile and thats good enough. lot of whats been said on this post is inexperience. For those people who have been tiling long enough will remember bal used to sell tools a few years ago and one trowel they had in the range was a 50% coverage. Also the trowel method of fixing is big here in the uk and some other countries but many Mediterranean countries dab tiles. do yourself a favour and speak to an architect for the correct information.

Any tiler with over 10 years experience that says he has never dabbed a tile is a liar.
I have tiled for nearly twenty years and used a number of fixing methods such as solid bed,50% coverage and yes dot and dab.to mention just a few.I have never had a tile fall off ever in nearly 20 years.I have never had to return to a job for fautly workmanship either.
From a personal ponit of view I have huge problems with forums like this
For the following reasons, anyone qualified or not can give advice to another person who may or may not have an ounce of common sense.
It is not outside the realms of possibility that the chap the other day who was advised to drill a hole in the ceiling to let the water out could have plugged a 240v drill in and stood underneath a ceiling full of water all set to drill through the cable supply for the shower. This advice to the best of my knowledge is still posted. I have to ask what’s the point in moderating a forum if your not going to edit dangerous advice. While in this general area I can offer this advise about throwing your dirty water down the drains, It is an offence and you will be prosecuted if caught. I can also say that if I employed you I and I caught you doing this or throwing it behind a bush in the garden then you would be looking for a new job whilst walking home regardless of how far it was!
Finally its just my point of view about the use of forums such as this but since time began it has never good business practice to share the secrets of your trade with the competition. And as we now find ourselves heading into recession why a tradesman would offer a enthusiastic amatuer help in taking the bread from his mouth is beyond me.A four week course doe not make you a tradesman I can just here it being said on these courses that “if you get stuck there are plenty of forums you can go on for good advice”

 

[kenny]

Excellent response grumpy

 

[grumpygrouter]

Thank you for your extended response Grumpy.

I would like to ask you where you dispose of your water after the work has been completed. My normal practice is to leave the buckets so the sediments settle to the bottom and then pour the predominantly clean water away down a mains drain outside. You say this is illegal however. What do you do with yours in the domestic environment?

 

[charlie1]

He wont tell you cos its bad practice to share trade secrets. Ohh nooo.

Grumpy JMO, Being a huge fan of this forum which clearly you are not then why do you tune in?? For a laugh??

 

[Biddyrider]

if only the clown had purchased a good quality travertine copy he wouldent of had any of these headackes ,looks like tubed paste and no tanking hope he knows these tiles need sealing and re sealing over the years .A fool and his money is always easily parted .Going to court - dont be silly just sort it .Try and take a couple of tiles off ,if its difficult just leave them ,if its easy keep taking them off until its hard .
Then soak the tiles to loosen the adhesive and re fix after cleaning them .use your common sense - nobody will work for sombody who threatens to take people to court at a simple whim get on with it .

 

[grumpygrouter]

if only the clown had purchased a good quality travertine copy he wouldent of had any of these headackes ,looks like tubed paste and no tanking hope he knows these tiles need sealing and re sealing over the years .A fool and his money is always easily parted .Going to court - dont be silly just sort it .Try and take a couple of tiles off ,if its difficult just leave them ,if its easy keep taking them off until its hard .
Then soak the tiles to loosen the adhesive and re fix after cleaning them .use your common sense - nobody will work for sombody who threatens to take people to court at a simple whim get on with it .

The guy has come on here seeking help and advice, comments like that above are not an appropriate response I feel. I don't know if you have read the whole thread but Spanky was concerned that the job was not being done to a satisfactory standard. For the money he was willing to pay he was entitled to have a first class job carried out. Taking someone to court over the issue is certainly not a whim.

Contributions to the forums are always welcome as long as they have value. This one currently does not come within that catagory. Hopefully you will continue to contribute but please keep your posts relevant.