Lippage clips... charge or not?

[Blunt Tool]

So many tilers using clips these days? Won't be long before DIY enthusiassts become part of the competition I fear. I hope for the professionals on here that I am proved wrong, but can't see it going any other way.
'Endorsed and used by professionals' will be their tag line on the shelves of Wicks / B&Q.

I remember my tradesman saying same about manual tile cutters as he scored along the 6x6 opal whites with his scriber! He didn't use clips with them either

 

[AOS TIling]

Genuinely sorry if I touched a nerve? Or maybe I didn't. I'm not getting the messages in your replies. Anyway, I'll leave it there as no doubt time will tell and I sincerely hope that I'm wrong about these clips. The consequences arent great if my pessism is correct

 

[Flintstone]

There just there to help that final part of tiling. If you can't tile these aren't tiling skills in a box!

 

[AOS TIling]

There just there to help that final part of tiling. If you can't tile these aren't tiling skills in a box!

Thanks for the reply. I laid 40 sq/m of wood effect porcelain 1200 x 200 this week. Absolutely flat as a pancake. I'd defy anyone to find fault. Work undertaken for a landscape gargener who knew his levels. He not only commented positively on the work but tipped me like never before. So, trust me, she was spot on.
What I fail to understand is, why would I use clips. Why add costs to the job?

Sorry no pics as I'm back in a fortnight to do backsplash so didn't take any yesterday

 

[Flintstone]

I have also done many plank jobs with no clips, and no lips, but that was with planks that are not bowed, as I'm sure your tiles weren't bowed either other wise you would have lips! Clips can bend bowed planks back to straight to remove lips. Also, for large format tiles, there is essential. Have you not used them before ?

 

[AOS TIling]

View attachment 92584

I have also done many plank jobs with no clips, and no lips, but that was with planks that are not bowed, as I'm sure your tiles weren't bowed either other wise you would have lips! Clips can bend bowed planks back to straight to remove lips. Also, for large format tiles, there is essential. Have you not used them before ?

Correct, I worked with quality tiles - no bowing. Your answer on the bowed plank effect makes sense. It's the first time anyone has offered me a reasonable explanation as to why clips might be used. On the few occasions that I have asked, I've been shouted down. If you are referring to large, large format - no it's not a markert I have any intention entering - not for me, I've done my time. But I can understand their uses there. Mostly Victorian work for me over the last few years. But back to my comments about the clips. I see them sitting in prominent retail positions at the likes of CTD and I do fear the impact they may have on the trade. Plus there's the solid bed fixing issue on floors but that's another story. One prominent retailer said to me - 'yep, you are right to be worried about solid bed fixing but why should I care' - he was loaded with booze at the time

 

[Flintstone]

Pulling tiles up leaving voids? That is another myth

 

[One Day]

Andrew, you and me have had this discussion since the lash clips first appeared many years ago and like you I was not sold on them one bit. The early ones from Genesis and QED had curved based which did indeed pull the tiles up out of the adhesive.
I had a dabble and then went back to thinking they were diy trickery, enabling a great looking job with spot fixing.
Role on a few years and I had 300sqm of extremely expensive porcelain and a customer who insisted on absolute perfection and a very tight turnaround.
I tried RLS clips and believe me, after a few hours finding my feet with them (and some constructive insults from Antonio) I nailed it.
They saved me a heap of time, stress and mess lifting tiles to re-bed.
I checked the floor was ok, back-skimmed the tiles as usual and used a 12mm notch with wet-ish adhesive. No coverage issues (RLS have flat backs) and a 100% perfect job.
Now I don't use them on every floor, but there are times when they are very useful and speed the job up.
As for tile quality, I had some £75 a metre mandarin stone planks - 1600x250, in January. For that money I expect flat tiles but these were bowed. Without the clips, I wouldn't have managed any more than a 200mm overlap.

I admit the risk remains;
Cons: they can allow idiots to achieve a good looking job.
Pros: they can allow pros to achieve more in less time.

 

[One Day]

I should add: last month I fitted 1200x800 porcel-thin on walls and floor.
I found the clips to be absolutely essential.
Course, we could argue that perfect floors and perfect walls would negate the need for clips, but 2 main things here:
1) We never get perfect substrates.
2) Even when we do (because we prepare them) the adhesive as it cures can pull and push the levels on the large-format thin porcelain.

 

[Spare Tool]

The pool surround I've just finished would be absolutely impossible to achieve a perfect finish without clips, managed a three way fall without envelope cuts using 1200x200 planks, it literally would have been impossible without them...

 

[AOS TIling]

I'd absolutely trust your judgement Mark but seeing how they are positioned by the tills, the cons should raise concerns. I am ensuring that I won't be affected by targeting a specific market but I am no less convinced that there will be trouble ahead so to speak. The manufacturers / retailers will have only one thing in mind - sales. Maybe there should be a control of sale law applied to them

 

[Flintstone]

The pool surround I've just finished would be absolutely impossible to achieve a perfect finish without clips, managed a three way fall without envelope cuts using 1200x200 planks, it literally would have been impossible without them...

Where's the photos Andy ???

 

[One Day]

I'd absolutely trust your judgement Mark but seeing how they are positioned by the tills, the cons should raise concerns. I am ensuring that I won't be affected by targeting a specific market but I am no less convinced that there will be trouble ahead so to speak. The manufacturers / retailers will have only one thing in mind - sales. Maybe there should be a control of sale law applied to them

aah there's always going to be trouble ahead! How we position ourselves, and maintain a reputation will carry us through unscathed.
The main casualty will be the industry as a whole. In much the same way as people are very wary of tiling bathroom floors, and are becoming jaded with leaky, failed wet rooms, they could get disillusioned with tiling as a whole if failure rates shoot up, thanks to poor fixing practise...

 

[Italy]

is the same situation, as when they arrived tile adhesives.
(Now all can lay tiles)
In 2017, find still placards who say,
Leveling clips do not serve,
Yes, they do not serve for tiles up to 30x60. Maybe we would need it
of refresher courses. Otherwise you are likely to be overtaken by apprentices.

 

[AOS TIling]

Now Mark & Lee - you wonder why I don't frequent Forums too often? People who know nothing about me or my work coming out with stuff like this. As Bill O'Herlihy used to say (Irish members will know him),
'we'll leave it there'

 

[Italy]

Now Mark & Lee - you wonder why I don't frequent Forums too often? People who know nothing about me or my work coming out with stuff like this. As Bill O'Herlihy used to say (Irish members will know him),
'we'll leave it there'

For me, you can be also the best tiler in london,
But what you said above does not change my opinion.
If you are afraid of beginners, because they can use leveling clips.
I'm sorry, but I think you do not really believe your possibilities.
I just said what I think,
without doing a lot of laps with useless words.
Good morning

 

[Andy Allen]

Can't say I've ever used them...
Although they do seem to be very popular now.
I can remember when they first came out and someone on here did a review .....think it was Gary.
Then they were torn to pieces about leaving voids, twisting the tiles ect.
So they must of improved a great deal since then.
It's like most thinks if you come into a trade and these thing's are already in place then they are the norm, if you have been doing a job for years then it's hard to change......
I've only just started using a grinder !!
If you can produce a more than acceptable job without them then I don't think you should be criticised for that as you shouldn't be if you choose to use them.
As for them making a DIY'er an expert...then there is so much more to tiling than level clips !

 

[WetSaw]

I suspect in a couple of years time all this debate about clips will be over as they'll become just another "tool" you either use or you don't. I can't see why the people who don't use them seem to get so uptight about them, if you're ( and more importantly your customers ) happy with the work you're turning out then there's not a problem!

 

[Italy]

I criticize only those who come here to pass judgment.
without first having tried. Or have tried a couple of times.
Even apprentices are able to lay flat tiles
And flat substrates.
a real tiler, is seen in moments of difficulty,
Not when everything is flat.
ps.
Even if he had spoken to Pope Francis,
I would have given the same answer.

 

[Andy Allen]

Can I just clarify.......what are they actually for...?
Bent large format tiles.
Uneven substrate .
To avoid lips due to adhesive shrinkage.
Any more ?

 

[Italy]

Can I just clarify.......what are they actually for...?
Bent large format tiles.
Uneven substrate .
To avoid lips due to adhesive shrinkage.
Any more ?

try them, is now

 

[LM]

Can I just clarify.......what are they actually for...?
Bent large format tiles.
Uneven substrate .
To avoid lips due to adhesive shrinkage.
Any more ?

IMO they help straighten out bent large tiles, particular planks.
On a substrate that isn't perfectly flat you can have two tiles beside each other both with full coverage but there may be 1-2 mill of difference in height, by raising the low tile and pressing down on the high tile you split the difference and clamp it with a clip until the adhesive sets.
The same logic applies to adhesive shrinkage.
There are many other uses for them that you learn the more you use them, like clamping tiles above windows etc.
All of us professional tilers can lay tiles level with a solid bed, the correct use of clips simply speeds the process up with confidence that the tiles will be in the same place as you left them when you come back to grout them.
In the wrong hands they can of course lead to failures due to incorrect adhesive bedding etc, but a grinder in the wrong hands can be a disaster also.
For those of us who are defending they're use we are simply sharing what we find to be a positive advancement in tiling tools.
Personally my heart would sink at the thought of having to revert back to tilling large formats without them.

 

[Blunt Tool]

Another tool in a tilers tool kit is not going to make us all extinct, years of experience does not get replaced by a piece of plastic! If Joe Public buys them then good the more in demand , the more manufactured, the more the price comes down! If they disappeared tomorrow no big deal!

 

[Joe Clinton]

Correct, I worked with quality tiles - no bowing. Your answer on the bowed plank effect makes sense. It's the first time anyone has offered me a reasonable explanation as to why clips might be used. On the few occasions that I have asked, I've been shouted down. If you are referring to large, large format - no it's not a markert I have any intention entering - not for me, I've done my time. But I can understand their uses there. Mostly Victorian work for me over the last few years. But back to my comments about the clips. I see them sitting in prominent retail positions at the likes of CTD and I do fear the impact they may have on the trade. Plus there's the solid bed fixing issue on floors but that's another story. One prominent retailer said to me - 'yep, you are right to be worried about solid bed fixing but why should I care' - he was loaded with booze at the time

On larger format ceramics you cannot not use them and get a job you'll be happy with, we did some 1000x330's that were bendy as ote on the walls and use the clips and it bends the tiles into place while they set. Definitely no use and more time consuming on small tiles, but as you use them more they become second nature and it's just that guarantee that on a floor if your packing out a bit you know for sure it's not going to move or sink at all, (yes if your coverage is right it shouldn't anyway but we've all had a tile we weren't happy with the next day thinking I didnt leave it like that)

 

[Andy Allen]

IMO they help straighten out bent large tiles, particular planks.
On a substrate that isn't perfectly flat you can have two tiles beside each other both with full coverage but there may be 1-2 mill of difference in height, by raising the low tile and pressing down on the high tile you split the difference and clamp it with a clip until the adhesive sets.
The same logic applies to adhesive shrinkage.
There are many other uses for them that you learn the more you use them, like clamping tiles above windows etc.
All of us professional tilers can lay tiles level with a solid bed, the correct use of clips simply speeds the process up with confidence that the tiles will be in the same place as you left them when you come back to grout them.
In the wrong hands they can of course lead to failures due to incorrect adhesive bedding etc, but a grinder in the wrong hands can be a disaster also.
For those of us who are defending they're use we are simply sharing what we find to be a positive advancement in tiling tools.
Personally my heart would sink at the thought of having to revert back to tilling large formats without them.

An excellent explanation Lee ...