Mixed batches.... opinion please

[Tile Shop]

Working for a supplier, we get a few issues with batch variation.

The complaints we get nearly always hit us along the lines of "you should have checked them before sending them".

I understand, maybe we should, however its not always practical to do so. We stock around 6000 ranges. Some fast sellers, some slow. So we try where we can to get all from one batch but due to stock turn around can't always be done. Plus imagine how many joblots we'd have to store for older batches. Not to mention the state of deliveries if we opened every box before despatching.

9 times out of 10 there is very little difference in shades. The other 1 time it can be massive.

So in our T&C's (them things that no-one reads but really should) we say its up to the customer or fitter to check that shades are ok before fixing. It also says on most boxes, no complaints after fixing. We're just backing up the manufacturers statement.

So i ask for your opinion if you think that this statement is a cop out used by suppliers to deflect resposibility. Who should check? Supplier, customer or fitter? Do you fit what you're given or open every box beforehand to check for shades?

I refer people to T&Cs every day for various reasons. But the opinions of real tilers on the front line would be greatly appreciated.

 

[Old Mod]

So you're openly admitting u don't always send tiles from same batch,
But u TRY!
Surely that implies you know that at times u send mixed batches! Haha

Surely batch numbers are on outside of box not inside!

So if u were to buy a pillar box red Ferrari,pay for it in good faith and then u have a telephone box red Ferrari delivered to u, do u think u should have gone to Italy to make sure they painted it pillar box red, Instead of telephone box red?

Maybe an extreme example but if I order a particular colour, that's what I want!
I don't want the front half of my Ferrari pillar box red and the back half telephone box red!

I don't see whys it's unreasonable to expect to have all the same batch delivered.

similarly if u go into a greengrocer and ask for 10 apples I expect 10 apples!
So when I get home and find 9 apples and an orange, who's fault is it? Am I to check up on the greengrocer what they put in the bag?

'Sometimes there's Very little difference in shading!'
In who's opinion? Haha

And it's not always practicle for us to open 15 boxes of tiles in a 2x2m bathroom with all our kit around us just to see if the shade variance is slight or not.
Thing is about that, side by side on the floor they can be almost identical, when they're on the wall or floor and grouted, with light hitting them at different angles and depending on light quality and time of day, fluorescent lighting, halogen light and all the other types of lighting now, u can't even tell til they're installed, then they look black and white!

Like I said earlier, our job always sucks,
cos now it seems it's our fault u sent the wrong tiles! (Not u personally obviously!)

Sorry Paul, but u did ask! Haha

 

[Dave]

IMHO Paul , batches sent out should not be mixed , simple as that.. And yes!! It is the job of the seller to check batch/tone/shade numbers or dates and then the tiler double checks.

If for any reason a customer spots shading on tiles ( and it can happen with certain tiles) , then the tiler has a case of nominal shading as per norm but NOT if the batches are mixed...

If I get mixed batches , then I don't fix anything till issue is resolved.

 

[Dan]

You shouldn't send one bathrooms worth of tiles in any more than one batch.

And I'm not surprised you'd get a complaint if you do.

When I worked for topps the shop had replaced a whole bathroom many of times when we'd done that by mistake.

That said the tiler should also check batches before starting.

 

[Dan]

Surely pickers in the warehouse need better stock management skills? Send always the same batch, use last few boxes of one batch for small jobs. Single boxes for samples. Etc?

In rare cases that it's the end of line and a few batches, check the tile colour and shape matches. If it doesnt, don't full fill the order. Surely?

 

[Tile Shop]

You're right, lol. I did ask for that. But you can't honestly tell me you've never come across a job where the tiles supplied are mixed. What, never?????? Lucky man. We're not talking about it being the wrong tile, a factory variation from one batch to the next. Like wallpaper from any DIY store. Yes it can happen and yes we TRY our best to avoid it. Sorry, but how many suppliers are there? How many have the same statement in their T&C's? (if i'm honest I can't think of a single one that doesn't.... and trust me, I've done my research on this... part of the job... which is starting to suck even more now ) ***note to self, learn to keep gob shut***

We're not the only supplier that does it and if you can run a business better or have the room to store so many end of batches to sell as joblots, or are happy to just through that amount of value of tiles in a skip, then feel free to come and give us and every other tile supplier in the country a lesson in how it should be done. And I'd love to see you drive a lorry with 2 ton of loose tiles in the back after we've checked them (Sorry but you asked for that one back. No hard feelings ) .

I can't help the job i'm in and want the company to gain a better rep which is why "opinions" matter.

So if I was to argue the toss, you wouldn't check what you're fitting and it will be the fault of the supplier once the customer complains that they have two slightly different colours on the wall. Which is why we ask, are you happy with them? crack on then. Not happy? ok madam, we'll sort the problem for you before they get stuck.

As for you comments about lighting during fitting and the look once its done, (YES!!! I new they would come in handy) BS5385 states they should be fitted in the same light as the future lighting situation would be. "Exact quote available on request". So you should be stepping back, taking a look, switching light on and off.

So got 3_falls answer, he thinks its a cop-out. Anyone else wanna annihilate me on this one?

 

[Tile Shop]

took me so long to write, i didn't see the other three message pop up.

Our warehouse staff have been instructed to stop picking if they spot an issue. We also have a QC team that check the orders before loading. Please don't over-estimate the size of this issue. We send out over 2000 orders per week, and get the odd 1 or 2 per month and the variation is minimal.

But the reason I bring this up is they always come to us once the tiles are fixed, by which time, the manufacturer will entertain no further claims. By this time it can't be resolved and the problem is escalated.

I've dealt with complaints where the fixer has KNOWINGLY put different shades up saying to the customer "You gave me them to fit, so I fitted 'em". One that slipped through our QC and went out in error. Warehouse marked the pallet for referal and the new truck driver loaded it in error. Can't be helped. He's now learnt.

Many aspects to why this can happen and its not necessarily in our control to stop it.

 

[Old Mod]

Haha see now you're taking it personally from your actual companies point of view!
I was genaralising, everything u said about other companies is no doubt true!
But u asked what we thought about the subject, so u got your answer, 3 fold so far! Haha
U won't upset me Paul, made of rubber me! Been blamed so many times in this profession it doesn't often hit home.

I still don't see why checking batches leaves u with loose tiles, I'm afraid I'm lost there! Batch numbers are outside.
If u have loose tiles because u are trying to match colours and not numbers, well u've shot your own foot there! Haha

And as an end user I could care less if u have 50 boxes a batch left over, order less! Haha buy to order, don't stock!
Yeah I know u'll have an answer for that! Haha
You just asked our opinion on who's job did WE think it was to check batch numbers.
And of course I've had mixed batches delivered, never suggested for one minute I haven't, or did I?

Just to blow your BS 5385 theory out of the water, haha
What I actually said was, side by side on the floor they can look the same. With some shade variations, DUE TO BATCH differences and not shade variations within the same batch!
The difference is not noticeable until they're fixed and grouted and they have light hitting them at the correct angle, or whatever.
Perhaps I was unclear, apologies if I was ambiguous!

I appreciate people make mistakes like, lorry drivers or whoever, but... Simply fact remains u asked who should check batches, my answer is still resolute......the supplier!

There's never any hard feeling mate, it's just opinions,
and even us lowly Tilers are allowed to have them

 

[Tile Shop]

We're a distributor and get so many orders from retail, trade, other shops, we'd rather stock (really, need to stock) than keep people waiting. Baring in mind we deal direct with UAE, china, india, Brazil, all the popular european countries.... delivery times ain't great.

Points taken on board. Really thought I had you on the BS's.

and if i can add, in my opinion, Tiler's aren't lowly. They're artists and should be respected. I've tried tiling. I won't be doing at again in a hurry. I'll stick to pen pushing and keyboard tapping. Too many people wrongly think its easy. Tilers opinions should be the most important, which is why I asked and took a verbal hit for the team haha

But thanks

 

[On one]

As an end user who has suffered many times due to batch number problems,I dont think it is a wholesaler problem,more of a retailer caused problem.
Or more of a Homebase/Wickes/B&Q problem rather than a CTD/Independant retailer problem.
I have taken tiles back to the above said shops and explained that they are of different colours and you get a look of total disbelief! .......''never had this happen before'' type of thing.

 

[Dan]

You're right, lol. I did ask for that. But you can't honestly tell me you've never come across a job where the tiles supplied are mixed. What, never?????? Lucky man. We're not talking about it being the wrong tile, a factory variation from one batch to the next. Like wallpaper from any DIY store. Yes it can happen and yes we TRY our best to avoid it. Sorry, but how many suppliers are there? How many have the same statement in their T&C's? (if i'm honest I can't think of a single one that doesn't.... and trust me, I've done my research on this... part of the job... which is starting to suck even more now ) ***note to self, learn to keep gob shut***

We're not the only supplier that does it and if you can run a business better or have the room to store so many end of batches to sell as joblots, or are happy to just through that amount of value of tiles in a skip, then feel free to come and give us and every other tile supplier in the country a lesson in how it should be done. And I'd love to see you drive a lorry with 2 ton of loose tiles in the back after we've checked them (Sorry but you asked for that one back. No hard feelings ) .

I can't help the job i'm in and want the company to gain a better rep which is why "opinions" matter.

So if I was to argue the toss, you wouldn't check what you're fitting and it will be the fault of the supplier once the customer complains that they have two slightly different colours on the wall. Which is why we ask, are you happy with them? crack on then. Not happy? ok madam, we'll sort the problem for you before they get stuck.

As for you comments about lighting during fitting and the look once its done, (YES!!! I new they would come in handy) BS5385 states they should be fitted in the same light as the future lighting situation would be. "Exact quote available on request". So you should be stepping back, taking a look, switching light on and off.

So got 3_falls answer, he thinks its a cop-out. Anyone else wanna annihilate me on this one?

Thy wouldn't end up in a skip. It's stock management.

Keep the batches in batches in storage. Simple as that. Small orders are easily fulfilled. Large orders make sure it's one batch.

You'll be replacing a lot of tiles for nothing if you carry on and that's a bigger cost surely?

 

[Tile Shop]

Storage space is a real issue though. And keeping on batch to the side is all very well, but then you get through the 2nd batch, then the 3rd. Before you know it we have 7 batches of the same tile. so what about the next 20 ranges? So you can see why we have issues. If the warehouse pick the order and notice the batch issue and we don't have enough stock of 1 to fulfil the order, we also contact the customer and give the option of delivering on a sale or return basis.

Our warehouse manager is pretty clued up and had looked at reserving stock for small orders. But with the bulk stocking of tiles from a land far far away, space goes pretty quick. Where possible we do sell joblots via the website and showrooms.

If stock is low, we also physically check stock before taking an order, and also look at whether they're tiling multiple rooms.... same tile, 2 batches, or the sale or return if for a single room.

You can also look at the possibility for wall tiles as an example, the lighting from one wall to the next. As long as they are not on the same wall (lighting dependant) will make it even less noticable if at all. but that relies on the tiles being checked by whoever is fixing to make that decision, as to whether the quantities work out.

Don't worry, not ducking from the fact that its all my fault in the first place, lol

 

[Andy Allen]

If a supplier sells different batches of tiles......as in the batch numbers on the box's are different then there selling a product that isn't fit for purpose .....so why do it..?

As 3-fall said I couldn't care less if you got loads of end of line tiles left over its up to them to allow for that in there costings.

Imo if a customer supplies there own tiles then it's down to them to check batches or that the tiles are are fit for perpose especially as a lot of the tiles from the sheds don't even have a batch number to relate to........at the end of the day there employing our services to fix there tiles they bought.........having said that I would always check to box's before fitting ...where possible ... and flag up any issues but where there's nothing to relate to then Imo it's there problem not the tilers.

If a tiler supplies the tiles then any issues are down to them to sort out......and that's why I put a mark up on materials I supply to allow for this.

 

[Dave]

I've dealt with CTD for over 20yrs and CTD Darlington since they opened ( approx 17 yrs ) and they have never supplied me with a mixed batch num of tiles , how they handle left over tiles in small mtrge from batches I don't know but as a fixer I cannot knock the service when it comes to getting matching batch numbers from them.

I also use tiles from BCT and just finished a bathroom and yes I was supplied 5 Mtrs from another batch 6 months date difference from the majority but luckily enough we had more tiles for new displays for the showroom and they matched , other wise I'd have had to wait around 3 days for replacements .

So just as well I check batch numbers eh ...

 

[Tile Shop]

Just to clarify, this is not deliberate. We don't intentionally send different batches. 1 tile, 20 pallets ordered and stocked.... most of the time, the factory give us the same batch. so stock turn-around isn't a problem. the next pallet WILL be the same. This is why if a new pallet is started, it will be refered by QC for investigation and rectified before despatch. if it can't be rectified, we give the option to the customer to accept what we have, or wait for new stock.

But OCCASIONALLY, a customer accepts it, fixes them without checking, boom we have a problem.