problems with 600x600

[bobbynz]

yep thats with priming,just knock a tile back up when its dry couple days later,ive seen it it dosent stick to the back,i started a thread on this about 8 months ago after asking lots of tilers in my area ,and almost to a man they had experienced the same thing?????,seems wierd that adhesive companys know there is a prob,,but keep qiuet!!

Is it happening even with back skimming??

 

[jay]

yep thats with priming,just knock a tile back up when its dry couple days later,ive seen it it dosent stick to the back,i started a thread on this about 8 months ago after asking lots of tilers in my area ,and almost to a man they had experienced the same thing?????,seems wierd that adhesive companys know there is a prob,,but keep qiuet!!

if the adh is sticking to the substrate the primer has worked
as bobbynz asked were they back skimmed

adh takes more than 2 days to reach full strength more like 20 days

the conditions also come into play was adh skimming and were tiles twisted in or just sat

the adh company is not going to admit there is a problem it wouldn't be in there best interest

 

[bobbynz]

Your right Jay, but it would be in their interest to either withdraw the failed product or change the remedy?.
And at least refute the claims and prove everyone wrong.
Personally, I think that the new adh we use these days really need to be mixed, and used closely according to the manufacturers instructions. I think it would be a mistake to assume that we can use todays adh. the same way it's always used.
If this is a recurring problem then surely someone must know of the outcome. Adh. replaced by manufturer? Tiler has to rip up and start again? Tiler taken adh. man. to court?
has anyone else had personal experience of this problem? a few more examples of this would warrant an investigation, dont you think?

 

[jay]

Yes need more info pics facts .There are a lot of factors to take into consideration before the adh can be outright blamed and there are a lot of ways the manufacture can weasel out of taking blame

 

[Perry]

Jay i use this adhesive all the time have done since it was made i always skim the backs of all my tiles never had one problem and i pay twice as much for this adhesive than spf i think it better than sliced bread never have i used or seen a better adhesive i have fixed thousands of mtrs with it

 

[jay]

Jay i use this adhesive all the time have done since it was made i always skim the backs of all my tiles never had one problem and i pay twice as much for this adhesive than spf i think it better than sliced bread never have i used or seen a better adhesive i have fixed thousands of mtrs with it

Have noticed this over time . and have noticed you have had no issues ,it may come down to user error .its hard to believe a adh that is skimmed on the back of a tile (mainly porc) can release without a trace ,There was a guy from OZ who had the same probs but never got to the bottom of it did try tho (cant think of his name at present)only thing that would explain is the tile being water logged when fixing

 

[deankyall]

Maybe its something to do with underfloor heating ,havent heard of too many probs,when that's not been involved ,just a thought,also called a couple of tilers I know earlier,they don't back skim,just use solid bed towel,,I remember,using ceramics,and vitrified tiles that were not flat backed,and never ever back skimmed.

 

[deankyall]

also just read quite a bit of info online about porcelain tiles,tried to copy and paste but didnt work do a search and youll find quite a bit of info,

anyway it bought to mind what the bostik rep said, that due to the nature of porcelain being almost impervious,that the normal mechanical bond cannot take place,so the bond strength is not as it should be ,as it is when the process takes place with ceramics, maybe when you combine this with the movement caused by heating temperatures and warmth rising coupled with a weak bond causes the problems,now im not saying this is true,just a thought,but i cant see any company admitting it to the masses.

 

[DHTiling]

I thought it was common knowledge that a fully vitrified tile does not key adhesive like a normal ceramic biscuit... but the profiling on a vitrified t ile does allow a certain key to the adhesive as long as back skimming is done to aid adhesion to the bed but i agree that when force is applied to a vitrified tile edge on, say like a hammer bolster then they can pop off clean as a whistle.. but as long as BS5385 is followed regarding expansion joints and perimeter joints then there will not be sufficient force to de-bond..

i had this conversation with my mapei rep..

 

[Ian]

This is why back skimming is so, so important. Far too many tilers not doing it.

 

[Perry]

Maybe its something to do with underfloor heating ,havent heard of too many probs,when that's not been involved ,just a thought,also called a couple of tilers I know earlier,they don't back skim,just use solid bed towel,,I remember,using ceramics,and vitrified tiles that were not flat backed,and never ever back skimmed.

the only adhesive you wouldn't need to back skim is PTB but i always take the tiles up when using that then rebed them a lot of guys get on them to early as well and break the bond

 

[bobbynz]

I remember the time we first started laying fully vitrified tiles 200x200mm learnt the lesson of sealing light coloured unpolished. But we were laying these straight to a s&c bed just using pure cement to key to the bed and there was no back skimming. They stuck like the proverbial poo to a blanket. Layed thousands of metres like that and never had a problem. Like i said, new tech and product requires new technique and parameters of use.
Oh, and good morning all :lol:

 

[deankyall]

all these methods taking tiles up etc,wonder what you all charge per m2,like doing job twice I suppose,taking every tile up to rebed really?

 

[Perry]

all these methods taking tiles up etc,wonder what you all charge per m2,like doing job twice I suppose,taking every tile up to rebed really?

you have to if laying 600 x 600 on a average floor and would be lucky to get 2mts to a 20 kg bag PTB inc hotels traveling and all materials what would you think one would get ?

 

[DHTiling]

all these methods taking tiles up etc,wonder what you all charge per m2,like doing job twice I suppose,taking every tile up to rebed really?

It's doing the job properly. No you don't take every tile up but a well experienced tiler can tell as they press a tile down that it has insufficient coverage.

You seem to have a bee in your bonnet about working with large format tiles.

 

[jay]

If a floor has failed you need to determine the problem before trying to fix once you are confident you have found the problem take measures to not let it happen again ,all tiles require different methods of fixing it all comes down to experience and knowing your adh and its limitations

From what i can gather the adh in question doesn't seem to be at fault

 

[deankyall]

I'd be interested to know,just worked in croyden,and I know how much I got,just a normal m2 price

you have to if laying 600 x 600 on a average floor and would be lucky to get 2mts to a 20 kg bag PTB inc hotels traveling and all materials what would you think one would get ?

 

[deankyall]

It's doing the job properly. No you don't take every tile up but a well experienced tiler can tell as they press a tile down that it has insufficient coverage.

You seem to have a bee in your bonnet about working with large format tiles.

Not at all,but when I read through some of the posts on here,it sounds like they are reading from a book on tiling, reality is different,its fine quoting bs standards etc,but how many times is a job you turn up too exactly correct?,maybe its different up where you are,but if I walked away from all the jobs due to say incorrect ply,etc then I wouldn't have done much work,of course a tiler knows when he's bedded correctly,of course you check when you start laying,but to say "i take every tile up and rebed" is something I don't believe.especially when your trying to earn money on a price,which is why I asked how much would you have to charge??,because I know that its not feasible on what bloke would be charging down here.

 

[DHTiling]

I agree, i never take up every tile..

As for BS5385, well as an advice forum we have to advice the correct way to do things as not only tilers read the info but so do the public..

Now a tiler knows his limits and his tricks of the trade but they should still be installed to standards that you were taught etc even before BS5385 was introduced..

B5385 standards were introduced to show the minimum required from a tiled installation ... so if you disagree with what members advise is the standards then in all honesty that is your choice... but we must as to the best of our knowledge help members who as show them the right procedures..but we all get things wrong sometimes, hence why all input is welcome..

 

[Perry]

Not at all,but when I read through some of the posts on here,it sounds like they are reading from a book on tiling, reality is different,its fine quoting bs standards etc,but how many times is a job you turn up too exactly correct?,maybe its different up where you are,but if I walked away from all the jobs due to say incorrect ply,etc then I wouldn't have done much work,of course a tiler knows when he's bedded correctly,of course you check when you start laying,but to say "i take every tile up and rebed" is something I don't believe.especially when your trying to earn money on a price,which is why I asked how much would you have to charge??,because I know that its not feasible on what bloke would be charging down here.

i laid the river island in Croydon every tile on that floor was laid and taken up and re bedded because we are not given the luxury of a clear floor to prepare they dont even screed the floor sometimes to save money we have to lay on concrete which is just brushed in wet with a broom that takes a little skill and then we don't get 1 sq mtr to a bag and no they don't pay us any more ask Alan P he has worked for me when i am doing a domestic 300 x300 no i don't take every tile up and would you believe this some of my guys can lay 50 mts a day on a bumpy floor

 

[newmantiling]

thanks for your input on this tread i have had lots of sleepless nights about this problem its good to know i am not the only person with these problems

 

[adam.s]

First time poster long time reader :smilewinkgrin:

Would you think that this could be a primer issue as I have a job onto particle board flooring with PCI nanolight and the tile has de-laminated off a 300x600 porcelane tile. I was sold and reassured that I could use another brand of primer than PCI specified Grisogrund 303 primer. If for say this primer did not allow the tile to dry out in the same/relative time as the sub-straight being particle board and sucking a lot of the moister out before the tile getting full bond would this have major effect on the adhesive?
Dont shoot me for saying this but what are the..... is there any difference in the make up of primers??

Product used with 10+ years experience + 1 bad but enthusiastic salesman

Particle Board Sub straight
UNI Prime (Primer) RLA Polymers
BASF PCI Nanolight (white) Adhesive

Any help on this matter of primer and new technology adhesive working with porcelain tiles would be a great help.

Many thanks.

 

[Perry]

I wouldn't use nanolite on timber and wouldn't tile on chipboard only if i had to then i would use two part
if you were desperate you might get away with ply if you used a good coat of 303 you should only use their rapids on timber
was it a floor ?

 

[adam.s]

Yes it was a floor.
I have always used Mapei kerabond and Isolastic in the past.
On the Nanolight bag it says it can be directly put onto wooden sub straights.
I was sold this with the reassurance that it could be used for this application.
What my real question is though by using a different primer has this not allowed the adhesive to set in time for a bond to form to the porcelane tile?
Does the 303 give the adhesive a longer set time for these bonds to form?

 

[Perry]

sent you a pm with my phone number its hard to explain