Tiles de-bonding from new house

[Dumbo]

You could possibly buy the adhesive and primer again and get them to test like for like and also maybe a screed sample also

 

[Tileadvice]

I did suggest this - to take up a timber floor in another room on the ground floor and replicate the tiling event. No-one thought it was a good idea only me at the time. We we would not have the same Batches of course bit it would be test of concrete/floor base. Larsen mentioned they do not keep a retain of batches sold (i find this hard to believe as I thought every company would keep a sample of product manufactured - for customer complaints!

3_fall - i will need to find out what screed it is. The floor preparation was also discussed at the visit by Everyone - the tiler was happy with the floor on inspection prior to tiling. I belived the level of abrasion was ok (rough surface). What exact questions should I be asking??..so I can find answers

 

[Dumbo]

I was meaning send adhesive sample from floor and primer sample from floor with some new adhesive and primer to lab so they can test like for like to see if there is any difference between the different samples

 

[Old Mod]

From what I’ve understood an outside contractor was brought in to install your screed, most companies have a preferred system they use, whether it be cementitious or gypsum based, and every one has its unique characteristics, this determines the level of prep.
I’m not suggesting for one minute your tiler is at fault, but not every screed is prepared in the same way.
Without product information, we can’t be sure prep was correct, which will ultimately often cause failure of the finished floor.
Sometimes a visual inspection without all the relevant information can be misleading.

 

[Glynn]

Any chance of some pictures of the removed tile and substrate surface?

 

[Ajax123]

Based on your initial post this seems a really straight forward failure to me. you say the adhesive came off with the tile and the primer was attached tot he adhesive leaving a clean sub floor. This means simply that the primer had failed to stick to the floor. There are generally only 2 reasons why this happens. 1. poor preparation causing the primer to simply form a film on top of what ever was there e.g. dust, dirt, curing compound, laitence or simply a non porous floor with no abraded key. 2. too much moisture in the sub floor causing lack of absorption of the primer into the subfloor with the same result. A third option which I used to see a lot but not so much these days is the lack of dilution of a primer that required dilution. This is less common these days as most primers do not require dilution.

the "solvent" smell which is possibly just a chemical smell rather than solvent could easily be due to polymer modifiers within the screed/concrete. It is unlikely to have been anything on top of the subfloor as true solvents tend to evaporate quickly when surface bound.

I think you are trying to lay blame where it doesn't lie as for me this is a simple preparation/pre tiling treatment issue.

 

[Tileadvice]

Thank you, Great input & definitely somthing to think about.

So how would I go about trying find a root cause for each the senarios

1. poor preparation causing the primer to simply from a film on top of what ever was there e.g. dust, dirt, curing compound, laitence or simply a non porous floor with no abraded key.
What should I be looking for eg, if it was dust..would it be visible on the adhesive if I lifted a tile. Or if abrasion was not suitable..would you see that characteristic/pattern (rough or smooth) on the adhesive?

2. too much moisture in the sub floor
Is there a way to test if this is true? Should the tiler have checked moisture content before tiling? Should tilers do this? During discussion -he said it was happy with the floor (suitable for tiling).


2) the "solvent" smell which is possibly just a chemical smell rather than solvent could easily be due to polymer modifiers within the screed/concrete.
Is a polymer modifier somthing added to concrete/screed by the supplier? Is it suppose to be there? How do I determine if this was the cause? Can I test for something?

It must be something - its just to work through the possibilities

 

[Ajax123]

Thank you, Great input & definitely somthing to think about.

So how would I go about trying find a root cause for each the senarios

1. poor preparation causing the primer to simply from a film on top of what ever was there e.g. dust, dirt, curing compound, laitence or simply a non porous floor with no abraded key.
What should I be looking for eg, if it was dust..would it be visible on the adhesive if I lifted a tile. Or if abrasion was not suitable..would you see that characteristic/pattern (rough or smooth) on the adhesive?

If the primer has not penetrated into the screed it will simply form a skin over it's surface and some away on the back of the adhesive. This is a visual test. If there is primer on the adhesive and on the floor this is usually caused by primer degradation causing coheive faokure withjn the primer. often due to inappropriate primer e.g PVA. What I usually see in cases of poor preparation is patches of primer and small bits of adhesive stuck to the floor but most coming off Inn the tile.

2. too much moisture in the sub floor
Is there a way to test if this is true? Should the tiler have checked moisture content before tiling? Should tilers do this? During discussion -he said it was happy with the floor (suitable for tiling).

Suitable moisture levels for tiling can only be assessed by testing using a suitable testing equipment e.g. hygromerer. If no test was carried out who can possibly say if it was dry enough.


2) the "solvent" smell which is possibly just a chemical smell rather than solvent could easily be due to polymer modifiers within the screed/concrete.
Is a polymer modifier somthing added to concrete/screed by the supplier? Is it suppose to be there? How do I determine if this was the cause? Can I test for something?

Depends entirely on the screed type and composition. There are so many screeds in the market these days that without knowing which it was it is impossible to say if polymer modifiers, waterproofers, water reducing agents, air entrainers, or what ever else should be there or not. The supplier should be able to give this information. These can be added at supplier level of or site level.

It must be something - its just to work through the possibilities

Whilst not impossible it is unlikely given the relatively stringent quality processes used by CE marked companies that it is a product fault.

As I said based on your description in the first post it sounds like prep or pre installation error. Strange smells sometimes occur. In my experience, which whilst fallible is not inconsiderable, these are usually a red herring... mind you that would also smell fishy...

Often the route cause is difficult to,pinpoint as it is usually a combination things.

Who do you want to take the responsibility for this issue? What exactly are you looking for?

 

[Tileadvice]

Honestly, I just want to find out why the tiles de-bonded and how it happend, the responsible person would then be identified. I dont have a preference, but if I dont find answers...then it will most likely fall to me ( no hand, act or part in it...only paying for the job)

I do understand it is difficult to pinpoint, but you do have good suggestions to be fair and I would like to explore them...if I knew how and what to look for?

 

[Tileadvice]

If I could find an investigator would be ideal!