Are short courses devaluing the trades.

[DHTiling]

On all our trade forums we have many a discussion about short courses..

Now i know we have some top guys/gals on here who have gone on and done very well for themselves after such a course.

But without mentioning any course providers names... Are these providers devaluing the trades.. be it a tiler / a plumber / a sparky etc etc...


What are your thoughts on this growing population of diluted tradesmen/women..?..


Are these a good thing or a bad thing.. how have you done/progressed from such a course... ?


Have you failed to succeed after such a course... i am really interested to hear all stories good or bad..

 

[Ian]

I think from the 100's of people that do the short courses very few follow them through and make a career out of it (I may be wrong), and the ones that do are the people with the drive and determination to succeed. As you may or may not know, I worked for Sainsbury's before tiling and spent many years working my way up to a management level only to find that I hated it, high expectations and long hours with very little reward and money. I hated it and was determined to succeed after my course and still to this day I'm continually striving to make more contacts and build my business, I'm probably one of the few who have made a good career from a short course but the biggest reason for this is that I had nothing to fall back on, I'd quit my job so if I didn't make it work, I couldn't pay the bills. To sum up my little story I'd say that as a percentage of people who actually go into a trade after a course it's probably less than 10%, and those who aren't good enough will get caught out eventually. I don't think they are devaluing the trade but I'd say that they are partly responsible for some of the rough work that is a regular occurance on here, I think they need to make it crystal clear that the course is just the start and the hard stuff is yet to come, some will have you believe that a 2 week intensive course is as good as 10 years experience.

 

[Yorkshire Tiling Services]

Think that the general offer of - learn "to tile in a week", "learn plastering in seven days" etc is a mis-sell. These courses can only be described as an introduction to a trade. Many, me thinks do not really go into it with open eyes or with enough background knowledge of the trade they are entering, and also they could be brainwashed by the people who run the course, into thinking they can tile or whatever after the completion. This is a shame for the guys who have completed the course and parted with their hard earned money, not all will succeed in an industry that is already struggling due to the recession.
Myself, I had a well paid career that I hoped to be in for life, sadly I was made redundant. A mate of mine who fits kitchens and bathrooms said, why don't you be a tiler and go on a course..... which I did... it was a three day course. This gave me some good methods to use as a basis for starting tiling, especially setting out... everything else I have learned since by making and learning from my own mistakes, working with other experienced tilers,constantly asking questions,listening,watching and learning.
There are many routes to learning any trade, but if anything I think these courses should be regulated

 

[Ian]

I agree with the regulation idea. When I did my course I'd already done a fair bit of tiling before hand and felt confident about making a business out of it, without meaning to be disrespectful, some people on the course I did were never going to be able to go straight out into the tiling world after the 2/4 weeks as this was clearly the first time they had lifted a trowel. It would be interesting to know how many people have done these courses and how many of those are making a full time career out of it.


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[The Legend; Phil Hobson RIP]

I agree with Nick, some of these courses should be regulated. I think some give the impression that after four days/ four weeks you will become an accomplished, and ready to face any challenge, tiler. We all know this is nonsense. After 40 plus years I am still learning, and will continue to do so, until I pop my clogs, as I have said many times on this forum, these courses should stress that you will be taught the very basics of what can be a highly skilled, and very complex trade. Just my two penny worth

 

[Time's Ran Out]

A short term course will only provide a BASIC introduction to the wonderful world of tiling.
Anyone who thinks that it will provide a immediate route into the tiling trade are being hoodwinked by the misrepresentation that some of the training courses are selling.
As an Established Tiler I'am more than happy to discuss all aspects of my trade with DIY'er, novice, or just interested, in order that the job is done correctly - and that's why I'am pleased to have found Tilers Forum.
A good training course will not devalue the tiling trade, but the inadequate trainees who assume it's easy will only provide a sub standard level of workmanship - often attempting work that is above their capabilities - and leaving our industry with a devalued reputation.

 

[kilty55]

i went the course route also,i was a chef for 15 years and had reached as far as i wanted to go with the career,
i am also aware of how the apprentice trained guys must feel about these courses as i did a 3 year apprenticeship myself to become a chef i think i would also be miffed if cheffing schools popped up everywhere and they started filling the kitchens whilst i was still working in that industry

anyways i did the course and returned for more courses..5 to be exact and have spent countless hours on here trying to ram my brain with as much theory and knowledge as i can fit in to progress
as well as meeting other trades and trade days i have tried to gather as much info as i can
i have no issue in saying i probably only know a tiny fraction of what the apprentice trained pros do,but i started my business right when thr recession started and im still going

it has only been this year to be honest that my client base has really started to give me lots of repeat work,before that it was a lot of new contacts etc so i hope that i am now getting more established
same opinion as bri i think maybe 1 in 10 if you are lucky actually succeed from thse courses,however i do know lots do it part time as well as other jobs

the trouble imo at the moment is lots of customers are financially motivated as times are hard for lots,people with limited knowledge of how to actually carry out a full installtion properly and that also price things at stupid rates i beleive are taking a fair bit of work

i definatey agree with some sort of regulation attached to the courses,somethign that is not however paid direct to them as i can see many passing the test simply for financial gain
maybe the courses should be made to attach a criteria with a governing body and there students could be assessed independantly? just a thought

 

[user123]

I think it's a question as against what? Everybody knows that I went to NETT where Darren never promised that this was everything there is to tiling but he did give the best possible grounding in such a short time, gave tips how to practice from then on, etc etc, and my knowledge now I know is much more thorough then being a keen DIYer. Being in that class, a little like Bri said, there were some where I thought, no way, the attitude wasn't right, if a four day course seemed a chore already, what would the attitude be day in day out? So to my mind it is the attitude of the individuals that dilutes the trades, like some apprenticeships were pretty dire, depending who was teaching you.

The short courses being understood as a shortcut is, to my mind, the present quick fix or get rich quick virus in society, underlined by sudden celebrity fame and all that. There is no message out there that skill and trades and any profession takes time and continuous learning, even in the housing market it was, bodge this old wreck of a house up with a lick of paint and bingo, get 1000's of £s back over night, that sort of thing.

It's a bigger issue than short courses, IMO.

If I was a young man I would have carried on with the course and then know that this was a carreer for life, meaning, like Phil said, that I'd still be continually learning, improving, and striving for it, much like I do with my mosaics and every other career I had. There are lazy people and keen to learn people and some somewhere in between, it is not the courses that turn anyone into one or the other, but at least short courses give everyone the option to test their aptitude and feel for it all, which must be a good thing.

 

[DHTiling]

Another look on it is..: Some providers give these worthless bits of paper to a student and then that said person says they have a certificate of qualification in tiling and that makes them qualified etc..

That is why i said not to mention providers names as they are all NOT doing this... just some are devaluing trades and not telling how it is and hence these students fail in the real world..


This is though not just to this trade but all trades.. and talk of this is on all the trade forums, hence why iasked for our views on this..

really good replies so far, keep them coming..

 

[user123]

Another look on it is..: Some providers give these worthless bits of paper to a student and then that said person says they have a certificate of qualification in tiling and that makes them qualified etc..

That is why i said not to mention providers names as they are all NOT doing this... just some are devaluing trades and not telling how it is and hence these students fail in the real world..


This is though not just to this trade but all trades.. and talk of this is on all the trade forums, hence why iasked for our views on this..

really good replies so far, keep them coming..

I agree with that, the certificate fashion for any little thing is all wrong, seems to start at school already, people EXPECT a certificate for the ego rather than what they have really achieved, and then egos run away with themselves... that is very damaging to trades I reckon...

 

[The D]

hummmm as i had a training center i suppose i am one of the bag guys. my intention when i set up in tiling was to pass the trade on to future generations. opening a training center and working at the college was so i could train new tilers without the worry of them going to work for the competition. i have trained some good tilers in my time and i am proud of that fact. i can look in the yellow pages and there are 11 tilers I trained still doing there thing and another 3 that are 3 of the best tilers i have ever seen. non of them however are from short courses.

there was a need for new blood and a place for them to hone there skills but that is no longer the case. the short courses that have mislead people by over exaggerating the earning potential and handing out blag NVQ's like they are going out of fashion are doing some real damage to this trade.

all that said i do believe that if a tiler has the skills in there hands they can come from anywhere.

 

[doug boardley]

In an ideal world there would be apprenticeships for aspiring tilers, in the real world that just isn't happening, so I guess the short courses are getting more people out there with the very basic info to start to learn the trade.

 

[bluefox]

my experience has been frustrating, partly down to the economy perhaps, partly down to my "short course" entry in to the trades. i took the "advanced" option in tiling and plastering at what i consider and still do based on my experience and research to be a brilliant and well known reputable training centre. i've had successful careers in the past, set up my own businesses in the past and quite happy to pick up a shovel and dig in manually. i picked the courses i did to ensure i had the best possible information, skills, knowledge, back up support and training available on the market to me before i went out in to the wild real world.

i've been advertising my tiling & plastering business in all the local trade mags, parish mags, leaflets through doors etc, i've also contacted other trades/distributors/kitchen/bathroom sales etc in my area offering my services.
In addition to media sales, I've distributed approx 4000 good quality oversized coloured postcards - i know from previous businesses i've launched that i should get approx 5 calls per 1000 cards, of which at least 2-3 should convert in to sales, so far i've received about 5 calls in total from the 4000 leaflets distributed across small, medium and large houses.
in terms of getting work through other trades when they learn i'm (a) not local to north yorkshire, and (b) not "time served" they lose all interest, and it's not in my nature to lie/bend the truth etc, ( i was in a punters house the other day - simple downstairs toilet job, she was sold, wanted a date in the diary, but he did an immediate u-turn and wanted to know my background, time served, how long etc and said they'd call back - expect i've lost that job now.)
i've been advertising professionally since April across the entire region, i've received a total of about 15 calls!!!! of which i've done about 6. I've also been called back to 2 plastering jobs to re-work them once the 1st coat of paint has gone on as it has brought up a clearly unacceptable amount of imperfections - those who know me know i'm a careful detailed worker and never leave anything as a "can't be bothered that'll do bodge", but for the life of me when i was doing the work i genuinely could not see the imperfections ( no i don't need an eye test). i suspect i've lost the other 3 ceilings in the same house i originally quoted for. i can only suspect the other plastering jobs i did were finished to the same condition so no recommendations or repeat business there. On the one hand, i'm considering dropping the plastering all together as i totally recognise and appreciate the skill required and only ever learnt it to do tiling not become a plasterer, on the other hand, the only way to improve is to do more, but i'm very uncomfortable going in to the next punters house knowing that when i walk out the work might prove to be exceptionally average. i learnt it to support my desire to go in to tiling and offer multiskill, and to be honest i'd say 70% of the calls have been for plastering so without it i'd be even more stuffed as tiling wise i've probably had about 4 calls in total since i started advertising (of which 2 have been regrout jobs).

i've had to turn down about 2 jobs because i felt they were out of my depth based on my current limited experience.

Hope this helps - in summary, the economy hasn't helped which i recognise is not the question you're asking, but in terms of my skills i learnt the real world has proved to be exceptionally tricky without any experienced trades. i've also learnt that everything takes me significantly longer to do than more experienced time served people who had people along side them teaching them all the short cuts and tips of the trade - so i've lost work there even if my quote is competitive, it might take me 2 days to what an experienced plasterer can do in a few hours.
Clearly my particular set of circumstances can't go on so i've given myself until christmas to take a view on best options.
i should also mention, i know of other people on my course who have done really well through local connections etc.
hope this helps, thanks.

 

[Mike]

times are really tough for you bf, but even established tilers are struggling at the moment. if you have the option of a job it may be worth you taking it whilst you build up a client base on your days off. that's how i started off then voluntary redundancy gave me the chance of going it alone. i went on a 2 week course just to see what i could pick up (and it was free due to redundancy) but the trainer was useless, he did 22 years in the army, then a tiling training course then started training students with the promise of the pot of gold at the end of the rainbow. i'd been tiling 10 years (part time) by then and caught him out waffling many times, he took an instant dislike to me as i made him look daft as i asked him questions which stumped him. out of the 4 of us training i think only 1 other had the skills and attitude to be still trading now. i do think that there is too much promise made to the students/trainees just to get there course fees and that they're ready for any job after 2 or 4 weeks

 

[kilty55]

i think also more and more people are turning to diy,its all about money imo atm

this coupled with lots of joiners,builders and all trades who are now trying to multi trade will be making the work more and more scarce

 

[Andy Allen]

yes i think these courses are devaluing our trade.......learn how to tile in 6 weeks, hmmm may be....learn how to fix stone, mosaic, polished porcelain, large format, decoupling membranes, slc, ufh, backer boards, when to use white addy, grey addy, flexable grout, silicone....the list is endless.....add on to that, how to run a business...... quoting, business expenses and costings, invoices, receipts, business accounts and papper work, trade accounts ect... learn all that in 6 weeks?........thing is you need to, if you want to compete against experienced and established tradesmen, and there lies the problem with these courses, painting a rosey picture, that isnt there!!

as for the peeps that take the courses, as has already been said, i imagine a large percentage of them never get past the starting gate, those that do make it.....i take my hat off to them, i know they have worked hard and put the effort in to make there business a success, and in this day and age, referrals are the key to success, quality work is a must.

my bug bare ,are the muppets that think they can do it, and they cant, they finish there course, run round the local tile shop, like a headless chicken, buying what tools they need and telling anyone that will listen there a fully qualified tiler, they then charge a pittence to tile someones bathroom, then after 2hrs they realise there way out of there depth and leg it!!....belive you me ive seen it..

imo i dont think you can beat hands on training day in day out with a skilled tradesman, watching, learning, and asking questions, however in this day and age these opportunities are far and few between, so were back to the tiling course, they need to be more regulated, more honesty is needed and they need to make it very clear you will be tought the very basics of tiling.........and no you wont be earning 28...75k in your first year!!

 

[DHTiling]

Some really good replies... keep them coming..

 

[Colour Republic]

I believe there was a big boom in the training centres when the government announced we were short of x million homes and to build them the workforce was short of x hundreds of thousands of tradesmen. Cue businessmen that see a licence to print money, then the media took the average plumbers emergency call-out charge, x times that by 8 hours a day and hey presto headlines that say a plumber earns £300k a year without even trying:mad2:

Yes I believe training centres devalue the building industry, they promise big earnings and turn out a basic trained workforce who have been told they are ready to go it alone. This workforce undercut everybody else because they have no comprehension of the real costs and labour involved, they lose money and in turn drive down the cost of labour for the rest of the industry. Established firms go to the wall and those that do survive have to be doing very well to be able to afford training a competent workforce as it should be. In addition those that do come out of the course ill equipped (around 80% judging by this thread) then turn out shocking work a further devalue the public’s impression of the industry.

A viscous cycle

I believe it would work much better if the training centres offered an introduction to the industry and for the thousands they charge they then place the trainees into an established firm to further their education. What does an advance course cost these days? £2k? Hang on just checked and was greeted by the following.

"This five day advanced course is designed to cover all aspects of floor and wall tiling. We feel confident that after spending time with us at our centre you will be able to tackle everyday tiling requirements."

"Professional Tiling course covers the elements necessary to become a professional tiler. "

"Become NVQ qualified in tiling in 4 weeks - earn up to £50k per year"

"Tiling NVQ - Skilled Worker Card - 2 Days"

My personal favourite "Tiling Course on eBay for less." Seems you can learn it all for £2.99 -

HOW TO LAY WALL & FLOOR TILES TILING COURSE DVD NOVICE | eBay



Of course they can't be held responsible for the state the general industry is in but they certainly don't help IMO. No disrespect to those that have come through a course and succeeded but I’m guessing that is more to do with aptitude than the training centres producing well turned out tilers/plumbers/plasterers... Seems bit pot luck to me, surely if the training centres were producing a skilled workforce then successful attendees would outweigh the failures rather than the other way round.

 

[doug boardley]

just wondering where I stand,,,I don't actually have any​ tiling qualifications...

 

[Colour Republic]

just wondering where I stand,,,I don't actually have any​ tiling qualifications...

Personally I don't think qualifications have much relation to ability. I know plenty of people with qualifications who are crap at their job.

When employing people i'd never ask for qualifications, I can tell in 5 mins if they are going to be any good. Normally because they say something that shows they are already thinking 10 steps ahead. I'm sure thaty only comes with experience

 

[doug boardley]

Personally I don't think qualifications have much relation to ability. I know plenty of people with qualifications who are crap at their job.

When employing people i'd never ask for qualifications, I can tell in 5 mins if they are going to be any good. Normally because they say something that shows they are already thinking 10 steps ahead. I'm sure thaty only comes with experience[/QUOTE]
I'd like to think so Rob..after 30 years of trying

 

[The D]

just wondering where I stand,,,I don't actually have any​ tiling qualifications...

i had no quals until i started teaching now i have NVQ3 and i am still crap.

 

[The Legend; Phil Hobson RIP]

Personally I don't think qualifications have much relation to ability. I know plenty of people with
qualifications who are crap at their job.


I think Rob has hit the nail on the head, with that statement. I probably have every qualification it is possible to have within the tiling industry, but that is only because I came from the old school system time served college, day release, City & Guilds etc. But if I was crap at my job, non of that would matter.

I know some tilers who are time served, and yet are still as rough today as they were while they were serving their apprenticeships, I have said before imo good tiling or any trade comes from a certain type of person, a mind set on striving for perfection, attention to detail, a good eye, and most of all a conscience. But I still have issues with these fast track courses.

 

[Daz]

Okay, I've skimmed this thread and here's my input....

I'm a course tiler. I did have a lot of construction experience as I've been on building sites since the age of 10, but my builder father advised me not to follow his footsteps into self employed construction due to the recession at the back end of the 70's (he had a rough time).
I forged a well paid and successful career in IT but was never really happy. I negotiated an exit strategy from my career and used the money to fund my training and business startup.

Determination and ability (and I will add aptitude) have been mentioned, and I agree. Also, I don't believe that I could have made my business as successful without finding TF. I know it sounds as though I'm blowing smoke, but without the knowledge offered by the time served and experienced guys i would never have been able to achieve the steep learning curve required. Just like Phil, I'm always learning and it's great that I've found somewhere that I can continue to expand my knowledge.

I don't believe course tiling is devaluing the market as the "poor" tilers are being found out pretty quick. The tilers that are prepared to go the extra mile, whether course trained or otherwise are always going to be successful, IMO. My pricing is definitely higher than my local competition and I'm always stacked out because quality and service will always stand out.

Daz

 

[bobbynz]

Correct me if I am wrong but do you not have a national qualifications authority that establishes and regulates the level of qualifications you can gain.
For instance over here you can take a course for tiling at any educational institute but the course details are determined by the NZQA so no matter who teaches you they must follow their predetermined curriculum. We have a short course which is 10 weeks which is a level 2 tiling qualification but its being removed so that there will only be 1 course to qualify as a tiler. Its based on a 3 year program and served over part of that time as an apprentice apart from that if you don't know a thing about tiling and have already been in the workforce for a while then the only way you can get into tiling is if you have a mate or a family member in the trade who is generous enough to take the time to teach you and pay you at the same time. Which is how i got into the trade with my father 28 years ago.
Today its not so easy and from what the talk is today we will all have to be licensed to work as a tiling contractor in the next couple of years. Hence the change from 10 weeks to 3 years.
What i don't understand about the UK "tiling courses" is who determines the level of expertise and qualifications. You say some are for 4 days and some are for 4 weeks, who qualifies the instructors?
Who established what must be taught?
Do you guys see this as a problem? Our trade has been earned not just given away like a lolly (sweeties to you guys) scramble.
Most of the guys i know have worked hard to earn their trade and thats the way it should be. Imo any short course and a piece of paper will only break down and corrupt an industry that has fast become a highly skilled and technical career.
If you want in then be prepared to serve your time as the boy. You wont make much but if you are serious and passionate about your craft then you will do just fine. oh and by the way.................Go the mighty allblacks!!:hurray: