dot and dab

[spanky]

Doh.

Here we go again . . . . .

http://www.tilersforums.com/tiling-forum/12719-dot-dab-travertine.html

Spanky

 

[Rab78]

Just read your link to the topic about the trav, thats a shocking story m8, but theres a closure coming soon on this kind of tiling. In america you should show credentials, you know a certification card, it should become a practice to see these cards if the 'tiler' is sub contacted. Especially so. If their a tiler who is self-employed and not sub contracted, its more sincere I guess, they have to introduce themselves and quote you etc etc, chatting y'know. So theres a bond and theres a bad bond.

Make the bond good!

Paracites feed off larger creatures.

 

[The D]

These tiles were spot fixed two years ago and look at the damage in that short time.
There seems to be some confusion on the dot and dab debate. The old method of fixing tiles in sand and cement is not dot and dab.
This is solid bed. Yes you put a dot of sand and cement on the wall but the tiles were taped back into the blob creating pretty much a solid bed. This was don on solid walls and the reason it is not don now is the backgrounds have changed.
The spot fix method (five spots on the back of the tile) was used in the sixties when the tub adhesives were first being developed although there may still be some jobs that are still on the wall from the sixties using this method for every one that is still up there are one hundred that have fallen off. The adhesive manufacturers do not approve this method and now one with any credibility approves it.
In my humble opinion the odd spot of extra adhesive to compensate for the incompetence of the plasterer is the maximum you should be doing.
[/QUOTE]Sorry don’t know what happened to the pic’s but here they are again

 

[MICK the Tiler]

These tiles were spot fixed two years ago and look at the damage in that short time.
There seems to be some confusion on the dot and dab debate. The old method of fixing tiles in sand and cement is not dot and dab.
This is solid bed. Yes you put a dot of sand and cement on the wall but the tiles were taped back into the blob creating pretty much a solid bed. This was don on solid walls and the reason it is not don now is the backgrounds have changed.
The spot fix method (five spots on the back of the tile) was used in the sixties when the tub adhesives were first being developed although there may still be some jobs that are still on the wall from the sixties using this method for every one that is still up there are one hundred that have fallen off. The adhesive manufacturers do not approve this method and now one with any credibility approves it.
In my humble opinion the odd spot of extra adhesive to compensate for the incompetence of the plasterer is the maximum you should be doing.

Exactly!!! Top post and top marks

 

[Ste450]

I came across a tiler the other day when working on site and he was laying wall tiles using the dot and dab technique - if you can call it a technique that is!!!!!!!

Surely this cannot be right???

Must be a rogue tiler???

Anyone got any thoughts on this ???

Total rubbish, this makes me so angry!! I use this method near enough all the time, its the only way you can get your tiling absolutely perfect. Now I don't just mean 5 spots, I mean on a 300 x 600 tile I'd put 18 spots + ! I only use rapid setting, cement based adhesive and I can guarantee that once set, you will not be able to remove that tile without pulling all the plasterboard with it! I know, I've had to do it before, when I've made a mistake. No timber wall is ever 100% level and flat (to the mm) and even with some self levelling, floors can be 2/4 mm out so to get the job perfect, you have to spot. I've been tiling this way for 13 years and I've only ever had a problem with 2 floors and that was down to the dodgy, cheap plywood! I've even ripped out old jobs of mine and my fathers, and it's been a tough job. No cracked tiles, no "moisture damage" and they're well stuck! I've ripped out jobs where the previous fitter has combed the wall and the adhesive has hardly touched the tile, you can see there's a space between each adhesive line left on the wall so there can't be 100% coverage can there!?
So, all in all, this talk of "cowboys only dot and dab" is total garbage talk. I've never seen a job as perfect as mine, ever! Walls absolutely solid and floors absolutely solid...perfectly level and flat!
The old boys are spot on with what they say, it's all about marketing and £££'s!

 

[White Room]

Never read the British Standards then about spot fixing....

 

[Flintstone]

Total rubbish, this makes me so angry!! I use this method near enough all the time, its the only way you can get your tiling absolutely perfect. Now I don't just mean 5 spots, I mean on a 300 x 600 tile I'd put 18 spots + ! I only use rapid setting, cement based adhesive and I can guarantee that once set, you will not be able to remove that tile without pulling all the plasterboard with it! I know, I've had to do it before, when I've made a mistake. No timber wall is ever 100% level and flat (to the mm) and even with some self levelling, floors can be 2/4 mm out so to get the job perfect, you have to spot. I've been tiling this way for 13 years and I've only ever had a problem with 2 floors and that was down to the dodgy, cheap plywood! I've even ripped out old jobs of mine and my fathers, and it's been a tough job. No cracked tiles, no "moisture damage" and they're well stuck! I've ripped out jobs where the previous fitter has combed the wall and the adhesive has hardly touched the tile, you can see there's a space between each adhesive line left on the wall so there can't be 100% coverage can there!?
So, all in all, this talk of "cowboys only dot and dab" is total garbage talk. I've never seen a job as perfect as mine, ever! Walls absolutely solid and floors absolutely solid...perfectly level and flat!
The old boys are spot on with what they say, it's all about marketing and £££'s!

Your in cuckoo land!

 

[LM]

@Ste450 it's proper procedure to correctly prepare your substrates to ensure amongst other things they are flat,true and plumb before tiling so they are within acceptable limits and also within the limits of adhesive depth capabilities etc. You may 'get away' with it at times but that is a non professional attitude and especially wrong if your charging people for a service.
No offence intended merely a bit of advice, but go read up about it or maybe go on a course!
Don't get angry, learn and improve!

 

[Old Mod]

Hi and welcome to the forum Ste!

 

[Bill]

@Ste450 it's proper procedure to correctly prepare your substrates to ensure amongst other things they are flat,true and plumb before tiling so they are within acceptable limits and also within the limits of adhesive depth capabilities etc. You may 'get away' with it at times but that is a non professional attitude and especially wrong if your charging people for a service.
No offence intended merely a bit of advice, but go read up about it or maybe go on a course!
Don't get angry, learn and improve!

By the same token, spot fixing his way may well work. As was also suggested wayyyyyyy earlier in the thread.

I don't have a problem with BS but BS don't encapsulate all building conditions that we have to, especially with the majority of foreign tiles and adhesives that we are now using.

Can BS honestly say that they test all adhesives with all foreign tiles? Of course they can't. So, they just use a standard to TRY and get manufacturers to make something that sticks to certain tiles' back/substrate and then they will be happy but this doesn't mean it will work for ALL tiles/substrates.

Probably why BS is not the Law but only a recommendation of practice.

 

[One Day]

Do what works.
Listen to advice and debate.
Cut through the commercial politics.
Use your own common sense.

 

[Ste450]

Your in cuckoo land!

Its "you're" in cuckoo land by the way...

Mate, the proof is in the pudding, 13 years and no problems, how do you work that one out? If I was doing something wrong, then I'd have comebacks wouldn't you say?

 

[Ste450]

Hi and welcome to the forum Ste!

Thanks, been meaning to join one for a while

 

[Ste450]

@Ste450 it's proper procedure to correctly prepare your substrates to ensure amongst other things they are flat,true and plumb before tiling so they are within acceptable limits and also within the limits of adhesive depth capabilities etc. You may 'get away' with it at times but that is a non professional attitude and especially wrong if your charging people for a service.
No offence intended merely a bit of advice, but go read up about it or maybe go on a course!
Don't get angry, learn and improve!

Well I must have been "getting away with it" for 13 years then eh? Never had any combacks with regards to tiles cracking, coming loose or grout cracking because of an insufficient bed of adhesive. The 2 mentioned were because of cheap crap Chinese ply.
So would you suggest to a customer that all the solid walls in a bathroom need dry lining and all the stud walls need altering because they're all just over an 1/8 inch out of plumb, let's say? Of course not, you can get over it with adding more adhesive to the bed, saving them hundreds of pounds!
None of you have actually seen my work and you'd be gobsmacked if you did! I'll upload some pictures tomorrow for you all...

 

[Ste450]

By the same token, spot fixing his way may well work. As was also suggested wayyyyyyy earlier in the thread.

I don't have a problem with BS but BS don't encapsulate all building conditions that we have to, especially with the majority of foreign tiles and adhesives that we are now using.

Can BS honestly say that they test all adhesives with all foreign tiles? Of course they can't. So, they just use a standard to TRY and get manufacturers to make something that sticks to certain tiles' back/substrate and then they will be happy but this doesn't mean it will work for ALL tiles/substrates.

Probably why BS is not the Law but only a recommendation of practice.

By the same token, spot fixing his way may well work. As was also suggested wayyyyyyy earlier in the thread.

I don't have a problem with BS but BS don't encapsulate all building conditions that we have to, especially with the majority of foreign tiles and adhesives that we are now using.

Can BS honestly say that they test all adhesives with all foreign tiles? Of course they can't. So, they just use a standard to TRY and get manufacturers to make something that sticks to certain tiles' back/substrate and then they will be happy but this doesn't mean it will work for ALL tiles/substrates.

Probably why BS is not the Law but only a recommendation of practice.

That's it, people have to cover their arses. When I spot tile, I'm not talking a measly few little spots, we're talking a substantial amount of adhesive so when you push the tile onto the wall, the adhesive spreads out creating a 85-90%-100% solid bed and you scrape away the excess that oozes out. It makes it easier to manipulate the tile so you get all joints perfectly flush. We tiled the floor in a local showroom 6 years ago that had to be spot tiled, its had 1000's of high heels walked all over it, its had things drop on it and step ladders and benches all over it and it's absolutely spot on! As long as you use high quality adhesives and use enough of it, you can't go far wrong