Should We Used Old Methods For Todays Problems

[Just Rizzle]

drying times seem to be a real issue with todays tilers and modern day addys
my first years in tilling we never mixed any adhesives it was all done in sand and cement screeds ive been back to some of the jobs we did years ago and there still there 33 yrs on.
going to see a guy tomorrow whos having a conservatory built with ufh wants to be able to use end of july for his daughters wedding its 33 sq mtrs and the roofs going on tomorrow and the ufh is being layed next week hes picked a jura limestone 600by 300 15 mm tile this would be a perfect job for the old method don't you think?

 

[Dougs Third Go]

drying times seem to be a real issue with todays tilers and modern day addys
my first years in tilling we never mixed any adhesives it was all done in sand and cement screeds ive been back to some of the jobs we did years ago and there still there 33 yrs on.
going to see a guy tomorrow whos having a conservatory built with ufh wants to be able to use end of july for his daughters wedding its 33 sq mtrs and the roofs going on tomorrow and the ufh is being layed next week hes picked a jura limestone 600by 300 15 mm tile this would be a perfect job for the old method don't you think?

30 years ago though Ray we didn't have ufh, green screed addy and de-coupling would be the way to go now surely?

 

[WetSaw]

I thought the Romans had ufh 2000 years ago!

 

[Dougs Third Go]

yes pdc, but with an entirely different interface, sand was used as a de-coupling membrane, concrete screeds weren't invented until the 1900's,,

 

[Just Rizzle]

have you never been to rome the Parthenon has a concrete dome 2000 yrs ago the romans built every thing using concrete
yes sand is used as a decoupling membrain put a layer down first. to give the screed strength a galvenised wire used to be incorporated in the screed
what im saying is has a lot of the old skills some of us have, are been lost through easy fix products.

 

[widler]

I don't think you can compare the roman ufh system to the modern system , i think theres many differances, one being its steam or hot air the other being no plastic pipes or hot water heating and cooling down , also we have no idea on how long the left it to dry
Read up on them, 'hypocaust'
Good reads, i love the roman empire, way before there time same as the egyptians , i think aliens were involved

 

[Dan]

I don't think when he said old methods he meant Roman times lol

But hell yeah.

I still use a pin hammer and nippers to cut holes for sockets. Not because I can't use a drill or wet cutter, but because I can still do it.

Takes ages but it feels good.

It's crazy how times have changed really. House builders use a lot less brick and a whole load of wood and plasterboard. And they're in and out. Then because of that every other trade has to get umpteen suppliers products in just to make it worthy to live in.

Sometimes the old ways are the simple and strong ways. The house I live in now was built in 1780ish and it's had a rewire and lots of decorating over the years but it's waaaaay more solid than the new builds down the road that'll need almost rebuilding every 30 or so years as the stud walls get weak and nothing can be fixed to them.

 

[The Legend; Phil Hobson RIP]

I don't think when he said old methods he meant Roman times lol

But hell yeah.

I still use a pin hammer and nippers to cut holes for sockets. Not because I can't use a drill or wet cutter, but because I can still do it.

Takes ages but it feels good.

It's crazy how times have changed really. House builders use a lot less brick and a whole load of wood and plasterboard. And they're in and out. Then because of that every other trade has to get umpteen suppliers products in just to make it worthy to live in.

Sometimes the old ways are the simple and strong ways. The house I live in now was built in 1780ish and it's had a rewire and lots of decorating over the years but it's waaaaay more solid than the new builds down the road that'll need almost rebuilding every 30 or so years as the stud walls get weak and nothing can be fixed to them.

Anyone who read my post "the time capsule that never was" that pool was tiled in sand and cement (floated coat) done in 1974 - 40 yrs ago. Still solid as a rock. As for the old saying Rome wasn't built in a day. I was not on that job. lol

 

[Just Rizzle]

I don't think you can compare the roman ufh system to the modern system , i think theres many differances, one being its steam or hot air the other being no plastic pipes or hot water heating and cooling down , also we have no idea on how long the left it to dry
Read up on them, 'hypocaust'
Good reads, i love the roman empire, way before there time same as the egyptians , i think aliens were involved

its only in the last 30 odd years that things in the tiling game have very rapidly changed. in my view not always for the better . decoupling was used by the use of alayer of sand upon which we layed tarpaulin then a semi dry screed in that we some times mixed good old horse hair to bind and give strength . the tiles were soaked over night in water and slurry bedded in the screed. the floors were grouted the following day and ready to use practically straight away.
now its cant lay till my screed meter says so computer says no.

 

[Rizzle from the Portizzle]

well having tiled over wet under floor heating with sand and cement laying the tiles as i go straight into the wet sand and cement over 12 years ago the floors never failed kitchen fitted four days latter
i think we have gone backwards screed fix tiles into screed one day grout next two days later they fit kitchen 3days come back tile spashbacks 1 day finshed 8 days finnished./ today float screed wait 60 days to dry out test floor still not dry as its been raining and damp out side wait anther 14 days test again ok ready to tile but still to commission the heating anther 10 days go by 1 day sanding floor cleaning up 1 day prime wait to dry 1 day putting down the decouplar 1day tile 1 day grout fit kitchen 3 days 1 day tile splash back

so 12 years later we have turned an 8 day job completed in to a 93 day job completed
may be 12 years from now it might just take 186 days now thats real progress

 

[Just Rizzle]

well having tiled over wet under floor heating with sand and cement laying the tiles as i go straight into the wet sand and cement over 12 years ago the floors never failed kitchen fitted four days latter
i think we have gone backwards screed fix tiles into screed one day grout next two days later they fit kitchen 3days come back tile spashbacks 1 day finshed 8 days finnished./ today float screed wait 60 days to dry out test floor still not dry as its been raining and damp out side wait anther 14 days test again ok ready to tile but still to commission the heating anther 10 days go by 1 day sanding floor cleaning up 1 day prime wait to dry 1 day putting down the decouplar 1day tile 1 day grout fit kitchen 3 days 1 day tile splash back

so 12 years later we have turned an 8 day job completed in to a 93 day job completed
may be 12 years from now it might just take 186 days now thats real progress

at last some body gets what im saying

modern methods are being pushed by the addy companys we buy our flexi s1 s2adhesives green screed addys etc where asbefor you could get a mix from your local cement supplier but that's not profitable for your topps and ctds

 

[widler]

Ray i agree , i think everything has got way to complecated , maybe the industry has done it to make money.
I remember tiling quarrys into new screeds , ive tiled concrete bases when they set.
I tiled my patio, in porcalain , onto concrete , which had been rained on snowed on and peed on , its been down over a year, in freezing and hot weather and is solid as a rock .

its only in the last 30 odd years that things in the tiling game have very rapidly changed. in my view not always for the better . decoupling was used by the use of alayer of sand upon which we layed tarpaulin then a semi dry screed in that we some times mixed good old horse hair to bind and give strength . the tiles were soaked over night in water and slurry bedded in the screed. the floors were grouted the following day and ready to use practically straight away.
now its cant lay till my screed meter says so computer says no.

 

[WetSaw]

The Roman floors comment was a bit tongue in cheek. I'm too young to remember the old ways......

 

[Ajax123]

There is a lot to be said for some of the "old ways" from a construction point of view the Victorians had some great ways of. Sbuilding but we want to build faster and cheaper nowadays and of course we seem to have this love affair witportland cement which doesn't really help IMO.

 

[Ajax123]

Of course the massive paradox for me is that the Greeks, Italians, Germans and the Romans, the Egyptians, the Chinese and probably a number of other societies were using gypsum flooring hundreds, or thousands of years ago. The Romans, Greeks and Italians and Chinese definitely tiled these floors yet when they made a come back in the mid 90's in the UK we seemed to have lost all common sense as we had no idea. Even now there are many tilers who are ignorant when it comes to these screeds which to me seems madness. I wonder how long a new technology has to be around before it becomes "old" . Ah well.... I'll keep plugging away at it

 

[Rizzle from the Portizzle]

Of course the massive paradox for me is that the Greeks, Italians, Germans and the Romans, the Egyptians, the Chinese and probably a number of other societies were using gypsum flooring hundreds, or thousands of years ago. The Romans, Greeks and Italians and Chinese definitely tiled these floors yet when they made a come back in the mid 90's in the UK we seemed to have lost all common sense as we had no idea. Even now there are many tilers who are ignorant when it comes to these screeds which to me seems madness. I wonder how long a new technology has to be around before it becomes "old" . Ah well.... I'll keep plugging away at it

so who failure is it to get the info out there the rubbish recycule foor layers who cant tell you day to day what there laying. or the tile shops that do there best to guess or the builder who thinks this will speed up the job .or may be the tta or even british standards well i would start by sending out leaflets to every tile shop do you know what you are tiling on to day heres a few clues what you need to look for .but we in the tile world have to deal with the three wise monkeys every day see no evil talk no evil hear evil well looking in tilers need a union to look after there interest first and not the run away surpliers who take you down one at a time in secret the bad news never get out its called devide and concoure its all ways the long game were the tiler looses

 

[Ajax123]

But that is my point Ray.... The info is out there regarding gypsum floors. It just amazes me that tile shops in general, many tilers, builders, main contractors don't access it. It's free, and easy to access. It's all over the Internet. I made sure if that in my previous employment and have continued to do solver since. The info is available from all the major manufacturers. Of course there is always an element in the trade that do access it and ignore it, that's the same in all walks of the building trade.

 

[Rizzle from the Portizzle]

But that is my point Ray.... The info is out there regarding gypsum floors. It just amazes me that tile shops in general, many tilers, builders, main contractors don't access it. It's free, and easy to access. It's all over the Internet. I made sure if that in my previous employment and have continued to do solver since. The info is available from all the major manufacturers. Of course there is always an element in the trade that do access it and ignore it, that's the same in all walks of the building trade.

alan i do admire all your efforts but you need to secure some sort of buget to get the message out there to pass on the info they need to give .to give you some idea how this is still not out there every week week in week out we train tilers who are fitting our tiles 3 to 4 a week some times double if more than one come .about 50% get the fixing wrong on your floors now when it comes to clients buying tiles its over 90% who are going to tell there tilers they have a screed floor have no idear they have to comision the heating first or tell there tilers it has to be sanded and sealed they just want the job done as quickly as poss .i do my best on the front line .i did here that all these floors from now on were going to be died red a great step forward is this true. on your part a great effort to make your floors stand out and long over due

 

[Ajax123]

Perhaps we should talk about getting some training in place for tilers fixing your tiles. I've done that with a number of adhesive companies before.

 

[Rizzle from the Portizzle]

Perhaps we should talk about getting some training in place for tilers fixing your tiles. I've done that with a number of adhesive companies before.

there just not passing this on in any way. why they still do not put the info on there bags of adhesive is beond me such a simple step to make on flow screed please ring for further info all it would take in big red letters all sides working tougher for the greater good for all .so are you going to add red diy to your floors to make them stand out to make a diffrence at very little cost our have i heard wrong

 

[Just Rizzle]

There is a lot to be said for some of the "old ways" from a construction point of view the Victorians had some great ways of. Sbuilding but we want to build faster and cheaper nowadays and of course we seem to have this love affair witportland cement which doesn't really help IMO.

but are we building faster if we have to weight 1day for every mill that the screed is thick when once over we could screed and tile and use in a week

 

[Just Rizzle]

Perhaps we should talk about getting some training in place for tilers fixing your tiles. I've done that with a number of adhesive companies before.

your not getting it the industry has been taken over by the big shedds making fortunes out of modern addys and the industry is getting ripped off
was in morocco 3 weeks ago and was watching a couple of guys working on a the tiles around a swimming pool which addy do you think they were using.
answer none
they were fixing in good old sand and cement and grouting in the same .

 

[Spare Tool]

well having tiled over wet under floor heating with sand and cement laying the tiles as i go straight into the wet sand and cement over 12 years ago the floors never failed kitchen fitted four days latter
i think we have gone backwards screed fix tiles into screed one day grout next two days later they fit kitchen 3days come back tile spashbacks 1 day finshed 8 days finnished./ today float screed wait 60 days to dry out test floor still not dry as its been raining and damp out side wait anther 14 days test again ok ready to tile but still to commission the heating anther 10 days go by 1 day sanding floor cleaning up 1 day prime wait to dry 1 day putting down the decouplar 1day tile 1 day grout fit kitchen 3 days 1 day tile splash back

so 12 years later we have turned an 8 day job completed in to a 93 day job completed
may be 12 years from now it might just take 186 days now thats real progress

Far as I'm aware some wet UFH systems don,t need a 70mm screed over them, after testing they can have 10mm of fibre leveller over them, leave overnight then ditra and tile with flexi rapid set day after, can be grouted 3 hours after that.
I'm a new school tiler as only been at this 9 years so not picking holes in old methods i haven't ever used and unable to comment on but in my book that is progress

 

[Just Rizzle]

Far as I'm aware some wet UFH systems don,t need a 70mm screed over them, after testing they can have 10mm of fibre leveller over them, leave overnight then ditra and tile with flexi rapid set day after, can be grouted 3 hours after that.
I'm a new school tiler as only been at this 9 years so not picking holes in old methods i haven't ever used and unable to comment on but in my book that is progress

yes that could be done but your then a slave to the tile sheds would probably cost 20x what it could cost if done in sand and cement .itis the cost of all these materials needed to do it your way that im getting at .

 

[Spare Tool]

yes that could be done but your then a slave to the tile sheds would probably cost 20x what it could cost if done in sand and cement .itis the cost of all these materials needed to do it your way that im getting at .

I understand what your getting at Ray, like I say never used S&C for fixing tiles, when I started bagged addy was and still is for me the way and the price of it is what it is. Can't recall ever picking up a bag of cement and it states it can be used for fixing tiles to a wood or plasterboard substrate. I know this particular job hasn't got those issues but that's what modern flexible adhesives and uncoupling were invented for.
At a guess your customers daughters wedding probably won't be cheap either...imagine how happy she'll be doing the first dance on her dads lovely warm newly tiled floor regardless of the few hundred extra quid it cost to get it completed in time..just reread your first post and if the screed done next week you might just be able to finish sealing tiles on the morning of the wedding. Do it the new way and it'll be done and dusted before the Stagg do